Should slaves be sold in the Income Generation phase or the Trading phase.

  • Slaves sold in Income Generation Phase.

    Votes: 2 66.7%
  • Slaves sold in Trading Phase.

    Votes: 1 33.3%

  • Total voters
    3

Insurgent

Gang Champion
Mar 17, 2016
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The premise is simple, Void pirates buy Pirate Slaves in recruitment and then sell them in the next post battle phase for a profit. Selling Gang members into slavery is already an established practice and we all agree that the going rate is D6x5.
(There must be some evil gang selling free settlement juves into slavery for a profit?)

The question is are the slaves sold in the Income generation phase? Or in the Trading phase.

~ If they are sold in the Income generation phase then credits you get from them will be added to the income from territory and loot. The slaves sold will also leave your gang roster and reduce the number of models in your gang on the income generation table.
~ If they are sold in the Trade phase then they are counted as models in your gang on the Income generation table. But the credits you get in the trade phase go directly in your stash.

Void pirates can by human slaves for 15 credits which gives them a 50/50 chance of turning a profit on D6x5.
THE BIG MONEY: Grot slaves can be bought for 5 credits. If they are sold for D6x5 credits that is an average of 10 credits profit.
BALANCE: It might be reasonable to only sell Grots for D3x5 credits. Making an average profit of 5 credits per Grot.

Eldar Corsairs buy 20 Grots for 100 credits in the Recruitment phase. They fight a scenario using them as cannon fodder (don't damage the merchandise). They then sell them in the next post battle phase for a profit.
~ If they sell them in the Income generation phase they get an average 300 additional credits if they sell them for D6x5 credits or an average 200 additional credits if they sell them for D3x5 credits. This is in addition the income generated from territory and loot and all gets shoved through the income generation table. The slaves just sold of course don't count as models in your gang. For 10-12 Eldar Corsairs this averages 100-115 credits in the stash.
~ If they sell them in the Trade phase the models stay on your Gang roster during income generation and eat all your income in upkeep for the number of models in your gang. But the credits you make from selling slaves in the Trade phase go directly into your stash. If you sell 20 Grots for D6x5 credits that is an average of 300 credits directly in your stash. If you sell 20 grots for D3x5 credits that is 200 credits directly in your stash.

"Life is good in the slave trade, and these goblins fear us if they don't outnumber us two to one", last words of Thalinus Gold Chain before the "Big Buy Rebellion" on Shator IV. "Eighty Grots was just too many slaves for 12 Corsairs to handle", said surviving Eldar Bosun Finreey Light Sail.
 
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spafe

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Okay, a few things.

Firstly, where is it commonly acceptable to sell your own gang? everything I can find says captured enemy gang member. That's quite a big hurdle for me... and unless I've missed something somewhere stating you can... I wouldn't say warbands or gangs can sell their own guys.

Secondly... assuming there is a hidden paragraph that I've missed (quite possible), the selling captured fighters in the start of the void pirates warband says that the captive is sold for d6*5 'profit', not income. Therefore it would (to my reading) be added straight into stash, and since this is all resolved as part of the injury process, it will occur before income, so if they instead convert to becoming a warband member, then they will count towards your numbers when you wash your other income through the table to generate profit.

One final thing... even if you can sell your own gang members... I would be inclined to argue that option should be taken out (maybe leave something in for a looser in a leadership challenge at most), as pretty much for the exact reason you say above... it serves no purpose other than to be gamey and break the system.
 

Insurgent

Gang Champion
Mar 17, 2016
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Ok, I didn't want to be "gamey" and break the system . I had a much longer post on this subject that crashed and I opened it with an anti-power gaming apology. You are correct that there is no rule about selling you own gang members into slavery. That said, it was such an established norm in every gaming group I have ever been apart of, that I didn't know it wasn't a rule until I started this thread.

Secondly selling a gang member into slavery has never been a highly profitable venture. It has always be a break even prospect at best and was commonly reserved for gang members with crippling injuries. With gang members costing 25 credits minimum the chance that you're going the make a five credit profit on a Juve is 1 in 6 on a D6X5 roll.

Finally we are talking about Void Pirates here. I am only considering this for the unit profile called "SLAVE" (see the connection there). With that -5 point on base cost it looks like you have a 50/50 shot at turning a profit on Human slaves but Grots really break the bank and I did address this as an issue in my original post.

Fluff considered, this arrangement totally makes sense for Void Pirates. Slave trade is probably their bread and butter. And slavery is a major practice across the Imperium, which probably accounts for the ease which chaos can spread. Slave rebellions are a major theme in any hyper militarized empire.

I really like the idea of Void Pirates investing in a "stock" of slaves and then trying to get them to survive the next battle. It is a huge amount of cash to be gained though and I understand this could be really unbalancing. What would anyone use Grot Slaves for anyway? Mining......Dangerous mining.....radioactive mining......illegal mining.
 
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tribeof1

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Mar 16, 2016
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Selling your own gang members into slavery has never been allowed by the rules and I see no reason to allow it now, especially when it's just an opportunity to create an unbalanced credit machine for hiring and selling grots. Fluff-wise, the void pirates might be engaged in some sort of slave trade, but that all happens off-screen unless they manage to capture some opponent models. Best to keep it that way, in my mind.
 
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spafe

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I get what you are saying @Insurgent , it will occur in the background, and likely the void pirates bread and butter... but one of the other suggestions elsewhere on the board was to have different incomes for different gangs (I think a bit o0f a further off project once we get 2.1 rolling again but still), and the suggestion (or at least my preferred method) for void pirates might be something like the journeyman gangs in ash wastes... they generate money if they win, because they made the transfer of 'goods', so the guilder pays them, if they lost then they lose the 'goods' and have to scavenge. That could easily port into void pirates transporting slaves, contraband, honest citizens, cargo etc etc etc.

To me that works far more in keeping with the fluff, the mechanics and what actually turns up on the tabletop, as opposed to even scavy mutant hordes being outnumbered by hordes of grots wielding stubguns (because you just would armthem all with crap pistols, that are transferred to the next batch each time you sell a group). It's kinda game breaking within the imunda ruleset, it isn't an actual rule and kinda works as a house rule to recoup a small amount of loses in necro because of the mininmun starting cost like you say... but still has a lot of problems when brought to imunda that I would suggest just dropping the house rule rather than try to build mechanics around it when there are a lot of factors to consider.
 

Insurgent

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Because I can't produce an actual slave sale rule I hereby consider this argument dead until further notice. That said slavery as despicable as it is, is still a big part of the Imperium. Developing the dynamics behind it is probably an important part of the inquisimunda system. Especially with the dynamic range of factions in Inquisimunda this type of trade could be central to income generation.

Can we please take the cap off Grots in the Ork faction.
 
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tribeof1

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I think toy could easily refluff some of the existing territories or contacts to represent a slaving operation -- Settlement seems perfect, if you interpret the possible free juve as a slave that's shown combat potential.

As for lifting the cap on grots-- what are you wanting to do? We could increase he limit on runtherds, allowing you take 5 grots per runtherd. But if you're wanting a Rebel Grot warband, you're better off using the Void Pirate list.
 
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Insurgent

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Man I hate Runtherds. If that is the way you want to do Grots fine. But Grots would be a huge part of any small independant warband of Orks. There really needs to be more human equipment available to Orks. Human equipment is great for Grots, especially muskets, autoguns, stubguns, and autopistols. The GRot is an essential part of the ork band,who else is going to work the territories? Not Orks. I can understand how they got pushed out of 40K along with everything else cool. We should really should be looking to the diversity of 2ed 40K for guidance not the shit they shovel us with whatever stupid edition 40K is currently on.

It is time to make a rebel Grot list and I can tell you one thing; it is going to have a very big rocket.
 

spafe

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@Insurgent , please please please do a variant on the ork warband that is a grot rebel faction (ala gorkamorka)... however I don't think grots being pushed to how they are 'now' is a result of 40k... Aforementioned gorkamorka had runtherds to allow access to grots, and that was... 2ed? The orks have always been the focus with the grots acting in small numbers guided in as fodder by the slavers. If it helps for background... you could argue there are actually 100 odd grots back in the territories working them, but the orks have to 'work' the territory to basically show up, kick the yoof up the backside who is overseeing the operation and take the profits (in this example yoof is also background rather than gang member). If that makes it more palatable to you in terms of fluff. Then only the grots that show 'combat potential' or are too unruly to leave to work are herded into the actual fights alongside the boys.

In terms of giving them primitive weapons... yeah I can get on board with that easily, would make sense.
 
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scavvyjay

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@Insurgent you seem to feel pretty passionate about grots, do a rebel grot list. It seems to me there is plenty of scope do do that, all bullet firing human weapons would fit, shotguns, autos, stubs. I love the idea of a big rokkit, bomb squigs, buzzer squig stikkbombs and plenty of sneaky weapons, a slingshot for example should be silent. Write up a list, give it a few games to see how it plays. My only concern would be due to the large number of grots and the relatively poor combat ability, they would get very little income between games. Give it a shot anyway.
 
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Insurgent

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You know I always wished Stubguns were 5 creds instead of 10. When I'm running a campaign I usually have a 5 cred Stubgun sale as a campaign event so the punny stub guns are in heavy circulation among Juves.
 
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