NCE Weak NCE skills

[luster]

Hey,

Does anyone think some of the revised NCE skills (particularly agility) are sorta crappy?

Agility -

Jump pack - rubbish ability! You can only use it in the start of YOUR turn. Meaning, it is almost useless for defending against a close combat monster who charged you, as you'll most likely be dead in the turn he charged. It helps in those rare situations where you someone survived the first round - meh.

Quick witted - sorta like a far inferior version of infiltration most of the time. Going on overwatch is unlikely to help since you usually start out of range; particularly useless if you get the first turn.

Dodge - got nerfed to only apply to shooting hits, not cc. Why?

Catfall - OK, this was always a crappy skill, but combined with the other weak skills in the agility tree, it means that the only real draws there are sprint and leap.

Leap - got nerfed so it can only be used when running, not moving.

Given that rolling in agility is essential for most cc gangs, and that 4/6 results are fairly sucky, this seems like a harsh disadvantage for many cc oriented gangs.

Stealth -

Main issue here is Ambush - what is the point in this skill? In order to use overwatch, you must remove yourself from hiding (in the opponent's movement phase) which then leaves you in exactly the same situation as if you didn't have the skill. There's a marginal usefulness in that you get to choose whether to stay hidden or use overwatch a bit later, but that seems too minor to be worth a skill pick.

Compare the techno tree which is as strong as ever; inventor hasn't been given any nerfs, despite it having the ability to easily destroy a campaign with one lucky roll (and sale).

That said, shooting has had some (minor) nerfs, which is appreciated. Although hip shooting is still dangerously overpowered when combined with any sort of flamer. Template weapons should probably be excluded, especially since sprinting while firing a flamer is quite ridiculous...

Thoughts?

 

[luster]

Some alternative skill ideas

Just thinking out loud really, but maybe these could replace some underused/boring/weak skills?

Stealth

Low profile - turns partial cover into full cover

Agility

Climb sheer surfaces - model can move up any surface without a ladder, or jump down, up to their movement value if they pass an initiative roll (could possibly replace catfall)

Quick Witted - models can test to avoid pinning when within 4" of this model instead of 2"

Jump back - model may move d3 inches backwards from an oncoming charge. If this moves them out of charge range, it counts as a failed charge.

Ferocity

Cold blooded - a model who shoots at an enemy fighter who is down receives +2 to injury rolls

 

[Ben_S]

Agility -

Jump pack - rubbish ability! You can only use it in the start of YOUR turn. Meaning, it is almost useless for defending against a close combat monster who charged you, as you'll most likely be dead in the turn he charged. It helps in those rare situations where you someone survived the first round - meh.

Dodge - got nerfed to only apply to shooting hits, not cc. Why?

Wasn't Dodge only ever against shooting hits? It doesn't seem to be red text.

And I think you under-estimate Jump Back. True, it's not useful for the first turn or two of combat. But if you get charged and survive, you can jump out and then shoot your opponent at point blank range. Or, if you're fighty yourself, jump out and then charge in again (for the charge bonus). And it can be done automatically (without any characteristic test).

 

[luster]

Wasn't Dodge only ever against shooting hits? It doesn't seem to be red text.

And I think you under-estimate Jump Back. True, it's not useful for the first turn or two of combat. But if you get charged and survive, you can jump out and then shoot your opponent at point blank range. Or, if you're fighty yourself, jump out and then charge in again (for the charge bonus). And it can be done automatically (without any characteristic test).

Original rules -

Dodge
A model with this skill receives a 6+ saving throw against hits from shooting or in hand-to-hand combat. This is an unmodified save – ie, it is not affected by a weapon’s armour save modifier. The save is taken separately and in addition to any saves for armour.
If a model successfully dodges from a weapon which uses a template or blast marker then move the model up to 2". As long as his move gets him outside the template area the fighter avoids the hit. Otherwise he may still be hit, even though he has dodged successfully.

And yes, jump back has a very situational use."If you get charged and survive" is a HUGE 'if' - in my experience, combats end in the first round 4/5 times (and even more as the campaign progresses and cc fighters become more beastly). A skill shouldn't just be useful 1% of the time... (this was the issue with the original quick draw skill). What do you think about my alternative jump back proposal anyway? Seems like it would be useful without being insanely powerful.

 

[Ben_S]

"If you get charged and survive" is a HUGE 'if'

That's not the only circumstance in which it's useful - it can also be used when you've charged and the combat's lasted a couple of turns. While some combats are over quickly, they can get drawn out when models are more evenly matched or when one model is particularly tough.

That said, I do like some of your ideas.

The jump back one is interesting, though I'm not sure how often it would result in a failed charge. Normally I find people only charge when clearly in charge range. In this case, I suppose it's use would be that the opponent might not declare a charge that they otherwise would have done, knowing that you have the skill.

Climbing is a good suggestion.

Your quick-witted seems a bit odd to me, since (if I'm reading it right) it actually helps other models. Nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but it seems a bit odd that your quick wits make others better able to escape pinning, rather than helping you.

And I'm not sure about the ferocity one either, because I don't see how ferocity helps shooting.

 

[luster]

Yeah I'm not sure about quick witted either. My thinking was that the model could help direct others forward due to quick thinking...

Maybe it could be changed to:

Quick witted - the model has a 180 degree line of sight instead of 90.

Ferocity in this case is more about someone having the cold-blooded cruelty to pick off someone who isn't a threat (down). Ferocity is about psychological composure/aggression I think, if you look at the other skills.

 

[luster]

Or maybe 360 degree line of sight. Call it 'fast reflexes' maybe.

 

[Ben_S]

Perhaps quick witted should interact with overwatch - e.g. you don't need to test to shoot fleeting targets and/or ignore the -1 penalty.

EDIT: Although, while this would be a cool skill, it might belong better on the Shooting skills.

 

[luster]

Yeah, agree it belongs in shooting. 360 degree line of sight interacts with shooting but seems more agilityish to me.

 

[luster]

Perhaps quick witted should interact with overwatch - e.g. you don't need to test to shoot fleeting targets and/or ignore the -1 penalty.

EDIT: Although, while this would be a cool skill, it might belong better on the Shooting skills.

Should we bring some of these ideas to the main NCE thread?

 

[Fold]

You may also want to consider the wider meta game.

Agility, while containing some duds (I don't agree all the skills you've highlighted are duds, but there are certainly some e.g catfall) is generally considered a fairly good table and is why Escher and Cawdor are better close combat gangs than Goliath. That's mostly because of the presence of Sprint and to a lesser extent Leap. Sprint is so good, that in terms of overall balance between skill tables, Agility is still a decent pick.

So if you un-nerf or improve the other Agility skills, I'd personally expect to see Sprint nerfed as a counterbalance.

 

[luster]

Grr, some bug made me triple post accidently - do you guys know how to delete a post?

Agility is considered an essential table for cc gangs purely because of sprint and leap. Likewise, shooting is an essential table for shooting gangs, but pretty much ALL of the skills there are very useful/essential for that purpose. Given that 'shooting is king' in Necromunda, I think a move towards giving agility/cc gangs a mild buff would be worthwhile. I don't see my agility changes as particularly major buffs anyway - the aim is simply to replace low usage skills like leap back with something more fun - skills are fun when they're used, not when they make a player groan when they roll them up! Note that muscle was given a major buff to help Goliath.

 

[Fold]

Leap - I've not seen your suggestion above? Note that I already dislike that it adds D6" of movement at all. To do so without running would make it even more incongruous!

Quick Witted - I like it as it is. Its a nice flexible skill. I've seen it put to great use getting the edge on picking up loot, allowing a ganger to advance and reach cover or hide in turn 1 when they otherwise would have been more in the open, getting the charge a whole turn earlier etc... You are not necessarily out of range on turn 1 to make overwatch useless either. Nor does having the first turn seem to make it a particularly worse skill to me (you would just use it to reposition rather than hiding or going into overwatch, or you could use it to hide, then go into overwatch on your first turn).

Ambush - this is a good skill. It lets you go into hidden overwatch straight away - a powerful pace to be. I don't understand why you feel it's pointless. Yes, you lose the hidden status if you actually shoot, but actually shooting in the opponents turn isn't the only use of overwatch, and if you do shoot you may have neutralised the threat of counterfire on your ambush guy.

Jump Back - in another recent thread (I forget which) this has been identified as one of the best close combat skills going. I think you will have a battle on your hands to convince people it's a weak skill! In my experience drawn or otherwise inconclusive combats are very common.

Catfall - this is the really crappy skill in Agility, what would you do with it?

Dodge - perhaps it was nerfed in LRB not NCE? Anyway, I don't necessarily mind your change, although it crosses over with sidestep then.

Sprint - how would you take this down a notch to compensate for the other skills getting better?

Cold Blooded - I don't see how being cold blooded would increase your chances of injury. And whether a ganger is inclined to shoot someone who is already down is already covered by the rules - it's up the player to decide after all, so if they want their gangers to be cold blooded then they can!

 

[spafe]

Just another point on Jumpback. Later in the campaign... having T4 and several wounds isnt that uncommon. If you also have jump back you could easily survive a charge by even a pretty powerful combat piece without being amazing at combat yourself. Then jump back and meltagun that fool. It isnt the most obviously awesome thing ever, but it really isnt terrible.

 

[luster]

Hm ok yes, that is a good point spafe, although killy combat pieces can also often destroy a multi-wound model by piling on the combat modifiers.

Well, how about buffing catfall to allow climbing surfaces with a successful initiative roll?

And bringing dodge back to 6+ for cc as well?

Minor buffs which would give a slight overall tilt back towards close combat gangs.

 

[Anthony]

Something to keep in mind is an aim for the NCE is to try and retain as much of the official rules as possible. I don't mind the idea of giving Dodge back it's HtH save, more so because that's what the official rule was and I'm thinking there wasn't enough justification to removing it. Reverting Crack Shot too might be useful since it's giving Shooting a dud roll.

Also I think I may be the only person who likes Catfall...

 

[luster]

Perhaps it could then be called "cat-like agility" instead?

 

[SirFrog]

Something to keep in mind is an aim for the NCE is to try and retain as much of the official rules as possible. I don't mind the idea of giving Dodge back it's HtH save, more so because that's what the official rule was and I'm thinking there wasn't enough justification to removing it. Reverting Crack Shot too might be useful since it's giving Shooting a dud roll.

I'd say Crack Shot is fine where it is. In most cases, it's kind of good but not incredible in any way. You get a 5+ to take someone out instead of a 6+, and while that's good, it's not incredible in any way.

Though it vastly improves weapons with High Impact and Needle weapons in particular... but how common are those anyway? I'd see that as a niche occurrence.

Also I think I may be the only person who likes Catfall...

It's very good for already mobile gangers on tables with a lot of verticality, especially if you can start higher up. Nothing like making a diving charge from above! It's also a literate lifesaver, since you get that Initiative save no matter the height.

Personally, I feel it's kind of cheap balancing tables with how many dud rolls or good rolls there are on it. I know that's not what NCE is about, but I feel like something's wrong when I roll on a "foreign" Skill table and go "Oh... well, that was useless".
Hopefully, N17 addresses this. Realistically, it probably won't.

 

[trollmeat]

I am quite fond of increasing the sphere of influence for pinning and break tests, but if it was done it should be +2" instead of a flat number.

Flat 4" would make it naff for Leaders, +2" would make it great.

 

[Loriel]

I can say that if you play with high terrain and players that also loves to go in to high terrain for the fun, cat fall becomes really good

Eventhough I don't think that necromunda should be balanced too much because there are lot different games which have much better balance for tournament minded players. For me the rules should support idea of fun and gimmick stuff. However I think one of the best way to make these skill trees would be that they have 2 good skills, 2 mediocre and 2 "weaks, gimmickly, situational skills".