N18 Weird things about the Outlaw Rules

[Neil McLellan]

So in both the Book of Judgement and Book of Ruin it states that Outlaw gangs can only hire Outlaw Hangers-On, Brutes, Hired Guns, and Dramatis Personae...

Later on it says that House Gangs cannot hire the House specific Brutes, this is redundant because the House Specific Brutes are not Outlaws
Another Redudancy, it says you cannot hire House specific Bounty Hunters, well they aren’t Outlaws, so...
But whatever, those first two, to be generous, they are just belaboring a point unnecessarily. But there is a third redundancy, and it is really weird. They say that Outlaw gangs cannot hire Dramatis Personae that do not have the Outlaw special rule... so we have two seperate rules... that are the same? You can ONLY HIRE OUTLAWS and you CANNOT HIRE NOT OUTLAWS! In what situation are both statements necessary? Do people regularly play Necromunda while in a state of quantum uncertainty? Are people playing Necromunda in some kind of Schrodinger’s Cat situation where a thing can be both itself and its opposite at the same time?

Another weird thing, it says that when an Outlaw gang hires a Hive Scum or Bounty Hunter, it gains the Outlaw special rule. Ok, how did they hire it? I mean, really we can assume the Necromunda rules writer are not computer programmers or very good at logic, or maybe they live outside of space-time, and our concept of past, present and future are alien to them.

Ok but lets just assume Rules as Intended for the above and get down to the real nitty gritty...
Outlaw gangs can only hire Outlaw Brutes. Ok, so we have been told that definitely House Brutes are not Outlaw Brutes. Also we think probably Ambots and Ogryns are not Outlaw Brutes? But maybe things don’t need to have the Outlaw rule to be Outlaw? Is that why Dramatis Personae need to be specified to be Outlaw and NOT NOT Outlaw? No that is madness.
So what Brutes could an Outlaw possibly hire? ”Wait!” you say, as I did, “The Iron Automata is a Brute! It is illegal! It has an illegality of 14! That is the second highest illegality on the whole Black Market! More illegal than the Corrupted (with Chaos) weapons!” “Surely... surely... Surely it is an Outlaw Brute!” You rush to read the entry for it... you read it again... you flip to the next page... you check the FAQ... “THERE IS NOTHING SAYING THE IRON AUTOMATA IS AN OUTLAW BRUTE!” you scream into the void. “But... but.. that means an Outlaw gang cannot hire it, and a law abiding gang could? There is no Brute an Outlaw gang could hire?” You begin to question reality, an insane conversation begins in your head: “Yes, this is the Black Market. Oh no, no sir, I could not sell an Outlaw such as yourself that HIGHLY ILLEGAL ROBOT. I could only sell that HIGHLY ILLEGAL ROBOT to a DECENT LAW ABIDING CITIZEN OF IMPECCABLE CHARACTER, what do you think I am doing, running some kind of Black Market here? Of course, if they are caught with this HIGHLY ILLEGAL ROBOT, they will declared DISREPUTABLE NO GOOD OUTLAWS just like you..” you begin to see red, you begin to think corpse starch is pretty bland, maybe there is something tastier, why do they process corpse starch so much? What if you just cut out the middle man and ate the raw ingredients? Surely Lord Helmwar and the Emperor would appreciate the increase in efficiency. You know what would look good? An eight pointed star! On your forehead! You begin to scratch one in with your fingernails!

 

[cardyfreak]

I always read it to be that an outlaw gang can hire any hanger on type but they automatically become an outlaw hanger on. Then if the gang changes it’s outlaw status to law abiding it loses all of its hangers on.
I might have oversimplified an unnecessarily complicated process but that was my impression of the rules

 

[Petitioner's City]

Yeah I'd agree with Cardy on this; I've always thought it quite simple and not too complicated. More so, Ambots, Jotunn and Iron Automata are hangers-on, not Dramatis personae, and pretty clearly can be hired by either law abiding or outlaw factions (though law abiding gangs have to roll that 14, which isn't too hard), just like other hangers-on not restricted to either alignment.

Of course a gang with an iron automata that is law abiding (or has become law abiding again) is - if you interpret the brute's illegality as an extra dice for alignment check - likely to lead to the law-abiding gang being outlawed.

 

[Neil McLellan]

I always read it to be that an outlaw gang can hire any hanger on type but they automatically become an outlaw hanger on. Then if the gang changes it’s outlaw status to law abiding it loses all of its hangers on.
I might have oversimplified an unnecessarily complicated process but that was my impression of the rules

Where does it say that though? It definitely says Hired Guns you hire become Outlaws but nowhere that I see does it say that Hangers On become Outlaws.

 

[Neil McLellan]

Yeah I'd agree with Cardy on this; I've always thought it quite simple and not too complicated. More so, Ambots, Jotunn and Iron Automata are hangers-on, not Dramatis personae, and pretty clearly can be hired by either law abiding or outlaw factions (though law abiding gangs have to roll that 14, which isn't too hard), just like other hangers-on not restricted to either alignment.

Of course a gang with an iron automata that is law abiding (or has become law abiding again) is - if you interpret the brute's illegality as an extra dice for alignment check - likely to lead to the law-abiding gang being outlawed.

The third bullet under effects of being an Outlaw, p. 38, Book of Judgement:
”Outlaw gangs can only hire Outlaw Hangers On, Brutes, Hired Guns, and Dramatis Personae.’

So seems pretty clear you can’t. The fact they are not Dramatis Personae has nothing to do with it. Dramatis Personae is just one of 4 things that are listed.

 

[Neil McLellan]

It is possible the “Hired guns hired by Outlaws become Outlaws” was also supposed to say “Hired Guns and Hangers On hired by Outlaws become Outlaws” and was repeated incorrectly in two different books. Possible evidence of this is that the ”Fixer” hanger on, which is not an Outlaw can help you with Alliance checks and it specifically calls out both Merchants Guild AND Recidivists. You had to be an Outlaw at some time to ally with Recidivist. I guess you could have been an Outlaw, allied with a Recidivist faction, changed alignment, gotten lucky and managed to keep your Criminal Alliance (or I guess Goliaths from Book of Chains with the Drug Dealers could automatically pass if first one), and then now you are a respectable citizen hired a Fixer, and if you ever have to test alliance again now have a bonus.
On the other hand, as evidenced by the Imperial Imposters rules, they got a little confused about what alignment you had to be to hire Recidivists and how it would interact with other rules.

 

[Neil McLellan]

Full Disclosure: I hired an Ambot last campaign while Outlawed, which I now think was incorrect.

 

[Petitioner's City]

I honestly think you are overthinking this

The simplest thing is that things marked outlaw-only are outlaw only; things marked house-only are law-abiding house only; Dramatis personae are locked to their alignment, everything else is fluid - gaining a law-abiding or outlaw attribute to what you are when you hire them.

 

[Neil McLellan]

I honestly think you are overthinking this

The simplest thing is that things marked outlaw-only are outlaw only; things marked house-only are law-abiding house only; Dramatis personae are locked to their alignment, everything else is fluid - gaining a law-abiding or outlaw attribute to what you are when you hire them.

That would make sense, it might even be what they intended, but that is definitely not what the rulebook says. It says you can only hire Outlaws, and the only fluid thing is Hired Guns, which can gain an Outlaw Attribute, nothing else.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Just give me an outlaw brute, please'
All I want is an outlaw brute and they wouldn't give it to me
All I wanted was an outlaw brute, just one outlaw brute
And they wouldn't give it to me, just an outlaw brute

 

[TopsyKretts]

I honestly think you are overthinking this

The simplest thing is that things marked outlaw-only are outlaw only; things marked house-only are law-abiding house only; Dramatis personae are locked to their alignment, everything else is fluid - gaining a law-abiding or outlaw attribute to what you are when you hire them.

I think RAW are pretty clear (or unclear) on the matter. ”Outlaw gangs can only hire Outlaw Hangers On, Brutes...".

The way I play this is, I can't keep track of all these over complicated rules, so me and my friends end up doing stuff like this hopefully "correct" (whatever that is). So maybe an outlaw gang accidentally hired a ogryn or iron automata? I can't really understand these rules, it is way too complicated, so normally we end up rolling dice and have fun.

 

[cardyfreak]

Where does it say that though? It definitely says Hired Guns you hire become Outlaws but nowhere that I see does it say that Hangers On become Outlaws.

The bit about hangers on is on page 39 BoJ under ‘changing alignment’.

So to sum it up (a table would be handy here!);

Hired guns can be hired by either alignment, but hirings by outlaw gangs gain the ‘outlaw’ status.


Hangers on can be hired by any alignment, as long as the alignment for the hanger on matches that of the gang. If a gang ever changes alignment it loses all of its hangers on. (RAW it would seem outlaw gangs are limited to the few outlaw hangers on in BoJ. I feel it would make sense to apply the outlaw status similarly to hired guns, though I feel the Rule as intended is to make this a penalty to being outlawed, so discussion with your gaming group would be needed, but there isn’t anything broken with the way it is in the book.)

House specific brutes and pets can only be hired by Law Abiding gangs, but aren’t lost if a gang switches to outlaw.

Generic Brutes and pets are can be hired by any gang alignment and are not lost if a gang switches alignment.

Dramatis Personae can only be hired if their alignment matches that of the gang. House specific DP are always Law abiding.

So basically, anytime you switch alignment you lose everything except brutes and pets. Law abiding gangs can hire anything except outlaw specific hires, outlaw gangs can only hire outlaw hangers on or Dramatis personae, or any type of hired gun (who gain the outlaw status).

 

[TopsyKretts]

An attempt at a table:

		Law Abiding Gangs	Outlaw Gangs	Keep existing when changing alignment?
Hired guns
	Hive Scum (0-5)
	Generic (un-named)	Yes	Yes (becomes Outlaw)	N/A
	Special character	Law-abiding only	Outlaw only	N/A
	Bounty Hunter (0-2)		Outlaw only
	Generic (un-named)	Yes	Yes (becomes Outlaw)	No
	Special character	Law-abiding only	Outlaw only	No
	Agent (0-1)
	Generic (un-named)	Law-abiding only	Outlaw only (none available yet)	No
	Special character	Law-abiding only	Outlaw only (none available yet)	No
Hangers-on
	Hangers-on
	Generic (un-named)	Law-abiding only	Outlaw only	No
	Special character	Law-abiding only	Outlaw only	No
	Brutes			Yes
	Universal (any gang)	Law-abiding only	Outlaw only (none available yet)	Yes
	Gang-specific	Law-abiding only	Outlaw only (none available yet)	Yes
Pets
	Universal (any gang)	Yes	Yes	Yes
	Gang-specific	Law-abiding only	Outlaw only	Yes

I think it's useful to agree on terms, because I'm not sure 'hired gun' is the same as 'hive scum'. This is my impression:

Hired guns (any of the following):

• Hive Scum (Generic & Special Character)
• Bounty Hunter (Generic & Special Character)
• Agent (Generic & Special Character)

Hangers-on (any of the following):

• Hangers-on
• Brute

Damn this is overly complicated!

Generic Brutes and pets are can be hired by any gang alignment and are not lost if a gang switches alignment.

How can you come to this conclusion when the opposite is already quoted from the book?

”Outlaw gangs can only hire Outlaw Hangers On, Brutes, Hired Guns, and Dramatis Personae.’
- p. 38, Book of Judgement

 

[Petitioner's City]

I'd find it strange that chem dealers (ie dealers in illegal goods), fixers (who benefits gangs who can ally with recidivists, ie outlaws), look outs (generic look outs), rogue docs (generic docs), narkers (spies), etc., can't be outlaws...

 

[TopsyKretts]

One answer can be that they made the whole "Outlaw" stuff as a one-off for Book of Judgement / L&M campaign. After that book was released, they won't make more outlaw stuff? They do however keep referencing it, so it's not dead yet.

This is the latest ruling on Outlaws in regards to Hired guns, from Book of Chains page 77:

OUTLAW HIRED GUNS
For the most part,in spite of appearances, Bounty Hunters, House Agents, Hive Scum and Dramatis Personae are relatively upright citizens of the underhive that follow Lord Helmawr’s laws as best they can. Therefore, ordinary Hired Guns can only be hired by Law Abiding gangs; they cannot be hired by Outlaw gangs (the rules for Outlaw gangs can be found in Necromunda: The Book of Judgement).

This does not mean that Outlaw gangs cannot hire Hired Guns. Outlaw gangs may purchase the services of a Hired Gun as normal. If they do, however, the fighter must be designated an ‘Outlaw’ and will gain the Outlaw special rule. Additionally, Outlaw gangs may hire only those Dramatis Personae that have the Outlaw special rule on their profile.

Law Abiding gangs cannot hire Dramatis Personae with the Outlaw rule on their profile and cannot designate a Hive Scum or a Bounty Hunter they have hired as an Outlaw.

I don't know what the specific wording means here. Fighters can be designated Outlaw? A gang designating a hired fighter as an Outlaw? I guess I know what it means that a fighter gains the Outlaw rule or has the Outlaw rule on the card.

 

[cardyfreak]

How can you come to this conclusion when the opposite is already quoted from the book?

”Outlaw gangs can only hire Outlaw Hangers On, Brutes, Hired Guns, and Dramatis Personae.’
- p. 38, Book of Judgement

Yeah I’ve got that wrong, so the OP is correct in thinking there are no brutes an outlaw gang can hire as they don’t take on an ‘outlaw’ tag like hired guns do.

 

[Galtarr]

unless they mean:

”Outlaw gangs can only hire (Outlaw Hangers On), (Brutes), (Hired Guns), and (Dramatis Personae).’

Instead of:
”Outlaw gangs can only hire Outlaw( Hangers On, Brutes, Hired Guns, and Dramatis Personae.)’

Not sure one makes more sense than the other..

 

[cardyfreak]

Book of ruin expands on the brute situation a little more by clarifying that although brutes aren’t lost when a gang turns outlaw, if they lose a brute due to loss of rep, for example, they can’t hire anymore of that type. So I guess it’s fairly redundant saying outlaw brutes as there aren’t any, unless there are plans to bring some in and they’ve added it in as a backstop.

 

[cardyfreak]

unless they mean:

”Outlaw gangs can only hire (Outlaw Hangers On), (Brutes), (Hired Guns), and (Dramatis Personae).’

Instead of:
”Outlaw gangs can only hire Outlaw( Hangers On, Brutes, Hired Guns, and Dramatis Personae.)’

Not sure one makes more sense than the other..

I’d wondered about that too but everything except brutes have ‘outlaw’ versions so I think the outlaw tag is all encompassing rather than just applying to hired guns.

 

[TopsyKretts]

unless they mean:

”Outlaw gangs can only hire (Outlaw Hangers On), (Brutes), (Hired Guns), and (Dramatis Personae).’

Instead of:
”Outlaw gangs can only hire Outlaw( Hangers On, Brutes, Hired Guns, and Dramatis Personae.)’

Not sure one makes more sense than the other..

It would be very poor writing and also incorrect for Dramatis Personae, which have to be Outlaw also.

The only one that "works" is:

Outlaw gangs can only hire (Outlaw Hangers on), (Brutes), (Outlaw Hive Scum) and (Outlaw Dramatis Personae).