N18 What to do with Web spam

Lord 83

Juve
Apr 22, 2022
34
25
23
25
So I'm running a campaign in my local game store and we have just finished the first "season". There is a player who I feel is abusing the mechanics and imbalance of the rules. Help me out here and tell me if I'm right or wrong. And if I am right, what I could do about it.

So he has cycled through several gangs during the course of the campaign. But something has never changed, he is a big fn of outcasts and usually bring them or venators. With outcasts there are a bunch of tricks that can be difficult to play against. His go to strategy is to bring the Master Charlatan as his leader (which is a frankly broken fighter for his cost, with Falsehood, Holochromatic Field and a bunch of skills.) and either building on giving everyone photo goggles and turning off the lights, or (and this is the more problematic one) giving every single one of his fighters web pistols.

I have found that no matter how strong your gang is, no matter how weak his fighters are, web is broken. It is alright on one or two fighters, but the autohit template with a strength of 4, no possibility to defend against it as there is no armour save, and no injury dice being rolled just going straight to serious injury becomes impossible to deal with when there are 6-7 of them.

Building on complete darkness was bad enough, as nobody had enough credits to outfit all their fighters with photo goggles just because they might go up against this particular player. But that could be worked around, a couple of goggles or lumens, or buying wide eye from the Escher (me) who was selling it cheap for this exact reason worked. But this web spam is something I cannot find a way around.

Any feedback is appreciated
 
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Isn't there a web solvent wargear thats lets you recover out of the web serious injury? Not a solid solution but may be a neat trick.

Honestly I think this is a conversation, if its not just you who isn't enjoying playing him, tell him, and give him a chance to be different.

If he still goes for sweaty tryhard gangs, just refuse to play him
 
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good luck with the campaign.
perhaps you could change the setting to a chemical sump or factory that has a polution in the air that dissolves webs after a turn , or on a dice roll.
the other characters would need gass masks of course
 
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Maybe institute a rule that if the template covers less than 50% of a model's base it is only hit on a d6 roll of 4-6? This is a fairly simple and not uncommon house rule.

This could also justify lowering the costs of most template weapons, just not web weapons.

Also, if you're arbitrating, start dropping Web Solvent in all the loot boxes.

Lastly, if you're playing hardball, make all web weapons unstable.

All of this is provided that you want to keep the guy in your campaign, which I probably wouldn't do if I were in your shoes.
 
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when our problem club member moved to australia it was happy days all round
 
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Simpliest fix to Web is that Webbed behaves as Seriously Injured in all cases other than Coup de Grace. Webbed fighter can become seriously injured while remaining webbed - then they can be chosen as a target for coup-de-grace.

This way webbers are still a menace, but you still need weapons to finish off the disabled fighters.
 
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So, to answer the stuff ppl said.
Heart of Storm
- Web solvent is ridiculously underwhelming for 25 credits. It gives you an extra dice on recovery. So it is not a sure thing and you have to wait until recovery. That simply cannot justify 25 creds per fighter for me.

Daveh
- As for changing the scenery to dissolve webs, not really an option. Can't really make house rules that target a specific player. There is also a narrative going on that doesn't really fit in with the chemical plants.

Psyan
- The template idea is good, but with how claustrophobic our maps are, they will mostly always cover the entire base.
- Dropping web solvent as loot however, that is a decent idea. Although the problem still persists that when someone is webbed, the solvent only might help in the end phase and they usually get Coup de Graced before that.
- Making web weapons unstable is the same problem as above, I don't want to house rule against one particular person.
- The reason I wish to keep him in the campaign is that we don't have a lot of players and straight up kicking someone out just because they abuse the system (but still stay within the confines of the rules and what is legal) seems a bit harsh. Might come to it though if there can be no solution found.

SirFrog
- We are playing 3D with Zone Mortalis terrain and some 40K and Kill Team stuff as Sector Mechanicus

JawRippa
- That could work but again, house ruling specifically against someone. I would also find it hard to justify why someone couldn't just Coup de Grace a webbed fighter.

Thank you so far for the ideas and insights, they certainly make me tink
 
I can't currently help with your problem. But I don't like it at all when a single weapon dominates in Necromunda from the very beginning. That doesn't fit the background of a bounty hunters' association for me either. When I play Necromunda, I also want to experience something and do you try something out, or also add a weapon typical of the house that others don't have. Even if it might not be that good. but that is part of the challenge.

It might be useful to have a house rule that limits the number of identical weapons, at least in the starting roster
 
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^ so you didn't comment on the other part of my suggestion, which was talk to the guy and tell him the way he plays isn't fun for anyone else. That should always precede a kicking, if he's not receptive to that then you can go full hostile environment with house rules
 
^ so you didn't comment on the other part of my suggestion, which was talk to the guy and tell him the way he plays isn't fun for anyone else. That should always precede a kicking, if he's not receptive to that then you can go full hostile environment with house rules
Oh yeah, I didn't comment on it but I thought that would be the first thing. It kinda slipped my mind to reply but yes, a talk always comes before a kick.
I just wanted to avoid it since I'm not very extroverted when it comes to uncomfortable conversations.
 
So, to answer the stuff ppl said.
Heart of Storm
- Web solvent is ridiculously underwhelming for 25 credits. It gives you an extra dice on recovery. So it is not a sure thing and you have to wait until recovery. That simply cannot justify 25 creds per fighter for me.

Daveh
- As for changing the scenery to dissolve webs, not really an option. Can't really make house rules that target a specific player. There is also a narrative going on that doesn't really fit in with the chemical plants.

Psyan
- The template idea is good, but with how claustrophobic our maps are, they will mostly always cover the entire base.
- Dropping web solvent as loot however, that is a decent idea. Although the problem still persists that when someone is webbed, the solvent only might help in the end phase and they usually get Coup de Graced before that.
- Making web weapons unstable is the same problem as above, I don't want to house rule against one particular person.
- The reason I wish to keep him in the campaign is that we don't have a lot of players and straight up kicking someone out just because they abuse the system (but still stay within the confines of the rules and what is legal) seems a bit harsh. Might come to it though if there can be no solution found.

SirFrog
- We are playing 3D with Zone Mortalis terrain and some 40K and Kill Team stuff as Sector Mechanicus

JawRippa
- That could work but again, house ruling specifically against someone. I would also find it hard to justify why someone couldn't just Coup de Grace a webbed fighter.

Thank you so far for the ideas and insights, they certainly make me tink
If a relatively expensive special weapon with extremely short range (template) is able to dominate every other gang/build, there is something terribly wrong with the way you guys play.
Sure, necromunda isn't the best game when it comes the balance, but there are simply so many other cost efficient choices, it baffles my mind that someone with just expensive templates can outmatch any other combo.
1) since you play on dense, short ranged boards, clearly the meta will shift towards flamer templates and short range weapons, so every other gang should also gravitate toward this kind of weapons (combat shotguns are also template auto hit, while being cheaper than web, and have a secondary Mode to fire up to 12", to engage before template range)
2) if you are all playing "fun and fluffy" lists instead of optimised lists, then either enforce house rules to limit any abuse by someone who doesn't behave, or go all out competitive. Can't have the cake and eat it too. Sometimes hard decisions have to be made so that all poeple can have at least some fun, instead of only one person. It's the same situation as for example plasma spam on open maps. Either play along, or enforce house rules to limit this behaviour.
 
JawRippa
- That could work but again, house ruling specifically against someone. I would also find it hard to justify why someone couldn't just Coup de Grace a webbed fighter.
There are a lot of broken things in Necromunda, web is not the only one. If you feel that this would ruin web, bump down the cost of all web weapons to compensate. As for lore reasons, by this logic we should be able to coup-de-grace blind fighters too, since the arey temporarily defenceless after getting flashbanged.

In general a good rule of thumb is to forbid players from taking more than 2 copies of the same special/heavy weapon. I'd consider weapons such as web to go into the 'limited' list too, even pistols. Bolters as well. Not only it brings at least some variety into the gangs, it also looks better on table, when models look and play differently. Instead of viewing it as ruining competetive player's fun, view it as a challenge for them, to come up with a varied gang while keeping it competetive.

From my opinion, doing things like
perhaps you could change the setting to a chemical sump or factory that has a polution in the air that dissolves webs after a turn , or on a dice roll.
the other characters would need gass masks of course
is x10 times worse than straight out banning or limiting choices, since it reeks of passive-aggressiveness towards one player's playstyle. Talk it out like adults, if one person is ruining fun for everyone, ask them to tone it down and give exact guidelines on what is allowed and what is not. If they decide to bail, then maybe it was not such a huge loss after all.
 
If a relatively expensive special weapon with extremely short range (template) is able to dominate every other gang/build, there is something terribly wrong with the way you guys play.
I would focus on this statement @Lord 83 . Oddly, compared to most of these threads with similar problems, I suspect you might have too much terrain. If you are playing 2d games, yeah, these are going to just own everything. But in a good 3d board, those templates are scary, but the lack of range is going to screw them over big time. Other gangs should be keeping a distance, pinning them with inpunity, causing damage long before they are in template range, then blitzing the survivors with a stimmed up combat beast who can charge forwards further than they can shoot to get in amongst them and mop up.

The leader will cause problems, but if you can get a few shots off with some special/heavy weaponry before he is in web range on a 3d board... either you are being massively outplayed every-single-game, or... you have too much terrain/too much low terrain and not enough height that even your 3d games play out like 2d games.

but there are simply so many other cost efficient choices, it baffles my mind that someone with just expensive templates can outmatch any other combo.
I would agree if the problem was webbers (special weapon), but the pistol is actually very affordable for what it does, esp if you can put it on cheap fighters (like scum), and their poor bs means nothing. 120creds (on a scum) to auto hit, wheras even other very good choices, such as boltguns, you are looking at similar prices (give or take 10 creds) for a ganger who is bs3 with one.
 
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I would focus on this statement @Lord 83 . Oddly, compared to most of these threads with similar problems, I suspect you might have too much terrain. If you are playing 2d games, yeah, these are going to just own everything. But in a good 3d board, those templates are scary, but the lack of range is going to screw them over big time. Other gangs should be keeping a distance, pinning them with inpunity, causing damage long before they are in template range, then blitzing the survivors with a stimmed up combat beast who can charge forwards further than they can shoot to get in amongst them and mop up.
With infiltration on template fighters and round priority stealing abilities (there are at least 2 tactic cards which do this), you can wreck games with templates even if the table is completely clean of terrain.
 
With infiltration on template fighters
Based on the below quote from the OP, along with his reference to terrain/board setups, and the lack of reference to infiltration... You're not wrong, it can really screw over a game, but I dont think that is the issue in this case. No way to get 6 or 7 infiltrators, acceptance that 1 or 2 fighters with these weapons can be dealt with (likely numbers for an infiltrating shenanigan setup) and the fact that this has stopped every gang (some gangs dont care if you come close with a few people) makes me think this isnt the usual handful of infiltrators slipping in and taking half a gang turn 1 with no response possilbe. Might be wrong though, just me gut feeling based on what has been said.

I have found that no matter how strong your gang is, no matter how weak his fighters are, web is broken. It is alright on one or two fighters, but the autohit template with a strength of 4, no possibility to defend against it as there is no armour save, and no injury dice being rolled just going straight to serious injury becomes impossible to deal with when there are 6-7 of them.
 
Based on the below quote from the OP, along with his reference to terrain/board setups, and the lack of reference to infiltration... You're not wrong, it can really screw over a game, but I dont think that is the issue in this case. No way to get 6 or 7 infiltrators, acceptance that 1 or 2 fighters with these weapons can be dealt with (likely numbers for an infiltrating shenanigan setup) and the fact that this has stopped every gang (some gangs dont care if you come close with a few people) makes me think this isnt the usual handful of infiltrators slipping in and taking half a gang turn 1 with no response possilbe. Might be wrong though, just me gut feeling based on what has been said.
Well, I forgot to include it in the original post, but yes, his leader and two champions always infiltrate, and Delaque has a Tactic that allows him to reverse the priority order and there is seize the initiative as well. So while not all of his fighters infiltrate, the three (or more if there is the possibility of taking more gang tactics) that do are more than enough to occupy the enemy until the rest get in range.
I always felt that Necromunda (or at least Zone Mortalis) is supposed to be claustrophobic. If a map is too open than entire gangs are countered by juves with autoguns because everyone can just pin to their hearts content and if you don't have spring up or nerves of steel, you can't melee.
Usually we have a lot of corridors and some open spaces with scatter terrain, along with limited height differences since we do not have enough terrain to do two full levels (as much as I'd love to do that). The problem seems to be that most matches tell you to use 4 or 6 zone mortalis tiles. Which is really small, even if a fighter just moves 5", they can move half the battlefield in 2-3 actions. This basically means that turn 1 everyone who is not infiltrating just double moves, and then with the 8" templates they are going to be in range of anything they want turn 2.

And just to be clear, since some have suggested this as the reason. I am not being outplayed, if you saw my previous posts you know we had a problem in the campaign in the begginning where I won too much since I knew the rules the best. This is no longer the case as the other players have also figured out how to play tactically. But the reason why this web player is dominating is not tactical brilliance over us. Most of us are veteran 40K players so once the rules and mechanics were well understood tactical thinking wasn't far behind.

And no, we are not switching to KT, it is an objectively worse game :D
 
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And just to be clear, since some have suggested this as the reason. I am not being outplayed
Ha, dont worry bud, I only said that as a silly throw away, as somehow I doubted that the problem player was able to outplay everyone every single time.

along with limited height differences since we do not have enough terrain to do two full levels
I suspect this might be it then, as once height gets involved, the templates get real short real quick if they have to go up as well
 
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