N18 What to do with Web spam

I just wanted to avoid it since I'm not very extroverted when it comes to uncomfortable conversations.
Are you the arbitrator? Does your group have one?

You need an authority figure for some groups, possibly all groups, otherwise there will always be those who will bend the boundaries of what’s acceptable.

He maybe one of those who can’t help themselves and just go for the killer stuff 100% of the time. I know there are suggestions above about changing up your own loadouts and that’s partially valid as this problem player has clearly found a combination that snookers you all every time.

I’d still suggest rather than bending everyone else’s builds to counter him, he should acknowledge that it’s him that making the campaign joyless for others and agree to tone it down.

If he doesn’t comply the authority figure needs to point out its play by the group rules or not at all.

It’s a harsh line and no-one wants to do that but sometimes even the suggestion is enough to get a result.
 
Are you the arbitrator? Does your group have one?

You need an authority figure for some groups, possibly all groups, otherwise there will always be those who will bend the boundaries of what’s acceptable.

He maybe one of those who can’t help themselves and just go for the killer stuff 100% of the time. I know there are suggestions above about changing up your own loadouts and that’s partially valid as this problem player has clearly found a combination that snookers you all every time.

I’d still suggest rather than bending everyone else’s builds to counter him, he should acknowledge that it’s him that making the campaign joyless for others and agree to tone it down.

If he doesn’t comply the authority figure needs to point out its play by the group rules or not at all.

It’s a harsh line and no-one wants to do that but sometimes even the suggestion is enough to get a result.
Yes I am the arbitrator. And now you see the crux of the problem :D Or at least from one side of it.
I get it, I have to talk to him and explain to a grown ass man that he is problematic. I simply posted the question here because I was trying to avoid that at all costs :D
But yeah, that is what will happen if the new season continues to have the same problem.
 
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I have a couple of suggestions that might work well:

Blast weapons: Especially big ones are great at shooting round corners. Even Photon Flash should put a serious crimp on infiltrating Web hijinks. Just pinning them threatens their threat range immensely . Also it gets around the False Hood quite nicely. Gas is quite effective too because it's a lot like web in that there are no saves and it doesn't care how many wounds you have. Get some choke gas for those grenade launchers and start returning the favour!

Doors: Use doors as part of your ZM set-up. Having to open a door will seriously cramp an infiltrator's style. Usually because they'll be on their own, whereas you'll be able to group activate and use a Juve to open them.

Smoke: A well placed smoke grenade will ruin a web infiltrators day pretty fast. You have to aim to put it within 5-6" of their (Web head) current position. This means that they can advance but can't shoot out of the smoke.

Stim-Slug Stash: Boost your T to make S4 Web pistols need a 5+ to take effect and web guns a 4+ (For a standard T3 fighter). Additionally, if you put these on a combat fighter, it's 2" of extra movement and if combined with Versatile weapons means that you can get to him with your melee fighters before he can web you.

Escher cards: Escher have some great movement cards. Ones that allow you free charges etc. You don't actually have to be able to make the charge distance to use a free charge, so on a Death Maiden that's a min 14" actual charge and if combined with combat virtuoso and a stim-slug stash = a big FU. This is quite dirty though so bear that in mind.

Your own infiltrators and/or Hip shooters: Boom, boom bye bye, especially if you give them a web gun/pistol.

Clever use of Juves: Send a Juve with either a couple of stub guns or stub gun/combat knife after him. You have to position them in such a way that he has to expose himself to the rest of your gang to shoot the Juve and that the Juve is the only fighter in range of his web gun. If he doesn't take the bait, just shoot him at 6" with your Juve who will get 2 x shots hitting on a 4+ each, or combat his arse and tie him down for your heavies to roll in and smash.

Click: If he's taking Deceit as a card he's unlikely to have a counter to Click and those web pistols are ammo 6+. Likewise there are psychic powers in the book of the Outcast that force an ammo roll. Very nice. Hallucination is quite a good power too. No LOS needed and send a chosen fighter within 12" insane. Turn those webs on him!

Traps and House Terrain: You know you want to.

I frequently use Delaque with infiltrating web Phantoms and all of these nasty tricks work super well to reduce their effectiveness.
 
Web is a little broken but a swift bolt round to the head would be a solution. Or a lascannon sniper for overkill
 
Aren't the outcast rules subject to acceptance by the arbitrator? How about just asking him to play a different leader?
 
The whole game subject to acceptance by the arbitrator. Alternatively, play without arbitrator and everything is subject to acceptance to you alone. Or in agreement with the friends you play with! :giggle:
 
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Of course, the other way, in the fa e of stubbornness is a "fire with fire" approach, either ran an abusive delaque gang yourself and go hard cheese, just against him, or do the same with Cawdor flamer spam.

Theres lots of not-fun ways to play necromunda, if "that guy" won't listen to reason putting him on the receiving end could do the trick
 
Group two gangers with Bolters with your leader (three with overseer if they do not get the hint) to hunt down the web spammers.
 
There are a lot of broken things in Necromunda, web is not the only one. If you feel that this would ruin web, bump down the cost of all web weapons to compensate. As for lore reasons, by this logic we should be able to coup-de-grace blind fighters too, since the arey temporarily defenceless after getting flashbanged.

In general a good rule of thumb is to forbid players from taking more than 2 copies of the same special/heavy weapon. I'd consider weapons such as web to go into the 'limited' list too, even pistols. Bolters as well. Not only it brings at least some variety into the gangs, it also looks better on table, when models look and play differently. Instead of viewing it as ruining competetive player's fun, view it as a challenge for them, to come up with a varied gang while keeping it competetive.

From my opinion, doing things like

is x10 times worse than straight out banning or limiting choices, since it reeks of passive-aggressiveness towards one player's playstyle. Talk it out like adults, if one person is ruining fun for everyone, ask them to tone it down and give exact guidelines on what is allowed and what is not. If they decide to bail, then maybe it was not such a huge loss after all.

I was going to suggest the anti-spam limitation myself but got beaten to it, so just raising a thumb to JawRippa’s.

We don’t have that in our campaign, but I do basically follow that rule of thumb in my gangs, even with basic weapons, and it’s perfectly fine.

I’m also arbitrator in our campaign and have no problem at all fixing stuff which can be abused - this game needs it. And 8 web pistols is an abuse. But I would be transparent when doing it, especially if it’s obviously clobbering one player’s beardiness.
 
There's a bunch of rules that can be used to reduce the power of web pistols, but if that's done there are plenty of other options that can be spammed for similar levels of effectiveness. That's just an issue that's going to exist in any game that gives players a lot of flexibility in army creation, there will be options that can be spammed or taken in combinations that break the game. If the guy is really committed to building OP lists then he'll just swap to spamming something else.

I think you just have to talk to the guy. It could be the guy just really likes the concept of his list, and will stick to it even if you bring in a house rule to reduce the power of web weapons (just dropping the strength by 1 is probably good enough). But that's unlikely, far more likely the guy is just out of tune with everyone else, and doesn't get that there's a lot more to the game than building power lists. From there he'll either get it and start to make lists that are more in line with everyone else's, or he won't and you'll have to consider other options. But in my experience most people take a step back from the power building when talked to about it.
 
So I'm running a campaign in my local game store and we have just finished the first "season". There is a player who I feel is abusing the mechanics and imbalance of the rules. Help me out here and tell me if I'm right or wrong. And if I am right, what I could do about it.

So he has cycled through several gangs during the course of the campaign. But something has never changed, he is a big fn of outcasts and usually bring them or venators. With outcasts there are a bunch of tricks that can be difficult to play against. His go to strategy is to bring the Master Charlatan as his leader (which is a frankly broken fighter for his cost, with Falsehood, Holochromatic Field and a bunch of skills.) and either building on giving everyone photo goggles and turning off the lights, or (and this is the more problematic one) giving every single one of his fighters web pistols.

I have found that no matter how strong your gang is, no matter how weak his fighters are, web is broken. It is alright on one or two fighters, but the autohit template with a strength of 4, no possibility to defend against it as there is no armour save, and no injury dice being rolled just going straight to serious injury becomes impossible to deal with when there are 6-7 of them.

Building on complete darkness was bad enough, as nobody had enough credits to outfit all their fighters with photo goggles just because they might go up against this particular player. But that could be worked around, a couple of goggles or lumens, or buying wide eye from the Escher (me) who was selling it cheap for this exact reason worked. But this web spam is something I cannot find a way around.

Any feedback is appreciated
Try blaze weapons. I had a matchup against a highly optimised all web delaque gang and managed to light the infiltrators on fire.
They'll be infiltrating out of los, but clustering behind some terrain, so they make great targets for blast templates like the fire grenades- that dont need los to hit you.
 
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Limit everybody to 3 template weapons max, including grenade launchers/ flamers/ webbers and missile launchers, house rule no infiltrate or 2 maximum on ZM games because its ridiculous on such small tables - including corpse grinders initiates and Ambots. Beware of Ogryns and Goliaths throwing grenades on such small tables too that's pretty oppressive. Honestly I think a player like that will just find something else that is equally annoying anyway, so good luck!!
 
So I'm running a campaign in my local game store and we have just finished the first "season". There is a player who I feel is abusing the mechanics and imbalance of the rules. Help me out here and tell me if I'm right or wrong. And if I am right, what I could do about it.
What is right or wrong will depend on your campaign and those playing in it. If it's causing issues for other players enjoyment, then it is a problem because, in my view, the campaign is there to be enjoyed by all and not just one person.

So he has cycled through several gangs during the course of the campaign.
This confuses me a little - does he switch up between gangs? Is he running multiple gangs? Or are you running a campaign based upon the one day rules?

But something has never changed, he is a big fn of outcasts and usually bring them or venators. With outcasts there are a bunch of tricks that can be difficult to play against. His go to strategy is to bring the Master Charlatan as his leader (which is a frankly broken fighter for his cost, with Falsehood, Holochromatic Field and a bunch of skills.) and either building on giving everyone photo goggles and turning off the lights, or (and this is the more problematic one) giving every single one of his fighters web pistols.

I have found that no matter how strong your gang is, no matter how weak his fighters are, web is broken. It is alright on one or two fighters, but the autohit template with a strength of 4, no possibility to defend against it as there is no armour save, and no injury dice being rolled just going straight to serious injury becomes impossible to deal with when there are 6-7 of them.

Building on complete darkness was bad enough, as nobody had enough credits to outfit all their fighters with photo goggles just because they might go up against this particular player. But that could be worked around, a couple of goggles or lumens, or buying wide eye from the Escher (me) who was selling it cheap for this exact reason worked. But this web spam is something I cannot find a way around.

Any feedback is appreciated
Before I have a go at this, is this a dominion campaign? How big are the tables you are gaming on in terms of 4x4 or 3x3 etc? Zone Mortalis or Sector Mechanicus, or both?

Edit: Just seen some responses about shooting around corners and over terrain. It says the web trait ignores armour - personally, I would still give cover saves in the same way as you do for flames. If it's going to stop fire, it'll stop web.

The next bit would depend upon the terrain you are using. I have always ruled that templates cannot pass through solid terrain. So if it's a bulkhead wall the flames just hit that and don't pass further. That means if a model is on a Zone Mortalis board, say, further than an inch away from the point of a corner, weapons using the flame template can't hit them from around the corner.

Eg the flames can't pass through the corner to hit them.
 
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So he has cycled through several gangs during the course of the campaign. But something has never changed, he is a big fn of outcasts and usually bring them or venators. With outcasts there are a bunch of tricks that can be difficult to play against. His go to strategy is to bring the Master Charlatan as his leader (which is a frankly broken fighter for his cost, with Falsehood, Holochromatic Field and a bunch of skills.) and either building on giving everyone photo goggles and turning off the lights, or (and this is the more problematic one) giving every single one of his fighters web pistols.
Right, having had a better look at Master Charlatan and the Outcasts again, I suspect to get "web" he is giving the master charlatan a house affiliation?

It sounds a lot like he is bending the rules for building a leader in Book of the Outcast. To explain I will looking at pages 17 and 27 from that book. I say this as this profile is related to an alliance and has no cost as a result... and has alliance rules...

Page 17 "Elevating an Underhive Outcasts Leader" - this refers to selecting any fighter profile to use as the leader of your outcast gang. Importantly, it says you go to page 27 once you have selected the profile, this is key because it skips all of the leader creation section including affiliation.

Page 27 "Designer's Note: Elevating a Fighter to Leader Status" - avoiding copyright so paraphrasing. Basically the arbitrator decides upon whether or not they will permit use of the chosen character to take part in the campaign.

My advice would be - a Master Charlatan isn't part of any house, as in, they can be in any house they choose to pretend to be in, but they aren't actually a member of them. I would suggest that as he apparently costs no credits, he has no house affiliation. Their entire purpose is essentially to be a rogue and steal from all of the clan houses by posing as a noble and blending in. Leading a bunch of outlaws and miscreants isn't exactly blending in, nor is it going to be near many nobles. He's also not blending in with any gang, which is what they do fluff wise.

Alternatively you could say that the affiliation only applies to him, not the rest of his outcasts as he is the one pretending to be whatever house it is.

Re skills, he can only have those that he comes with to start with - again, see page 27.

Lastly, on the Master Charlatan, he's got alliance rules and in theory should follow those (p15 of the Book of Judgement). So it's entirely likely they end up as outlaws.

With venators - it's 30creds per fighter for house legacy, therefore, for the basic hunters they are going to be 80creds per model before equipment. I'm guessing he is going with Delaque to get access to web pistols? 80 creds. So 160 creds for a hunter with a web pistol. Hunters are otherwise limited to rare 8 weapons and wargear, web pistols are rare 9. I'd argue at this point that 160 for a basic fighter without any armour is, well, more a risk on their part. That's a hell of a cred sink.

That sound right to folks(as in make sense)?
 
Webbed just is unfortunately a broken mechanic and thus any weapons that use it RAW are also broken. In terms of beating it RAW the move is to just stay as far away as possible from the player and to blast them with long ranged weapons. Escher could actually do that alright since they have their own spam choice: las gun line. I find that one way of putting a spammy player in their place is by min/maxing your own gang and just wiping the floor with them. It's actually really easy to make an OP gang in Necromunda.

But really it's an attitude problem on behalf of the player. You need to tell them to not keep building gangs that are full of web spam. If they're a reasonable person (unlikely) then they'll do it. If not the arbitrator can just cap the number of web weapons they get.
I came across this thread because I just shared my own web rules in another thread. Have a read if you want to try something less broken.
 
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Just pin the Webber's with dirt cheap lasgun/auto gun fire then some long range hard firepower.
Against web spam, or blaze templates Cawdor..., just combat them by extending your engagement zone. If they never get close enough to template range the expensive webgun or flamer can't earn it's keep.
A more esoteric option is to get a mindshard grenade or seven throw around some Insanity and watch as thier nasty webs target themselves mwahaha.
 
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Just pin the Webber's with dirt cheap lasgun/auto gun fire then some long range hard firepower.
One issue with this is if you are using the 2d boards, or if they have a lot of infiltrate to close without too much threat of long range fire incoming.

But yes, in general, the advice of staying away is good.
 
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Webbed just is unfortunately a broken mechanic and thus any weapons that use it RAW are also broken. In terms of beating it RAW the move is to just stay as far away as possible from the player and to blast them with long ranged weapons. Escher could actually do that alright since they have their own spam choice: las gun line. I find that one way of putting a spammy player in their place is by min/maxing your own gang and just wiping the floor with them. It's actually really easy to make an OP gang in Necromunda.

The web mechanic itself isn't broken. Make a webpistol strength 1 and charge 200 credits and people will be asking how to make web pistols useable. A powerful as the Web rule is, it isn't just absolutely awesome no matter what. Web weapons are powerful because the Web rule is combined with high strength and relatively low prices. The simplest fix, if a fix is really needed, is to just drop the strength. Drop web pistols to Str 3 and you've got a weapon that does nothing but pin 50% of the time against a T3 opponent. Drop web guns to Str 4 and its an expensive template that is a 50% shot against a T4 opponent.

But the bigger issue is web spam. One web weapon doesn't break a gang. It is a real battlefield factor, and the opponent needs to keep it in mind, but it can be accounted for. Its when there's a whole bunch of them that it changes and forces extreme responses like your suggested lasgun line. And the simplest answer there is to acknowledge that like almost any wargames, Necromunda breaks when people go hunting for extreme list builds. We can talk forever about exactly how much Necromunda is easier to break than other wargames, but that really doesn't matter. The point is any wargame needs to have players take on some responsibility to avoid doing stuff that obviously ruins the game.
 
Most similar game to Necromunda these days IMO is Kill Team, and I don't see how players can be irresponsible and break that? I've also played Blood Bowl alot and have yet to see any obnoxious way to break it (other than bad match-ups).