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Winter has Come, NCE

trollmeat

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I hope that multiple gangs arrive to send these Harkonnen kids the send off they deserve as they head back uphive :)
 
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spafe

Executive Officer in charge of Hats
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Great idea for a new level of depth to the campaigns fella!
 
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Shadowbadger

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Have been away for a bit so just caught this thread and in particular this post

The scenario choice was one of the lesser issues I felt with the Spyrer Gang Rating in OCE. It was more that:
  1. Since Spyrers start with Juve XP bands they get to say 33% of how tough they are ever going to be, quite quickly. Yet their rating hardly goes up. If your opponents are unlucky and lose say a leader or a heavy, they get no underdog or giant killer bonuses to catch up with you.
  2. Conversely, as @ineptmule found out. If you lose a couple of Spyrers early you are boned. You end up with like 3 guys but you get no underdog bonuses so it can be really hard to stay downhive and catch up, you get the same XP and even if you win you get nothing extra as you do not get leadership XP (which is correct, I pushed for this change, but it shows up here). You are forced to go back up above the wall or be left very far behind. I am not meaning from a power gaming point of view, I mean you end up wildly behind and whilst I am all for flavour and fluff in a campaign, a gang which is 2 or 3 times more powerful than another does not make for an interesting game.
It is all about accurately reflecting the relative power of a gang such that you can balance games and a gang which starts to fall behind can kind of keep pace and hopefully catch up, not just fall farther and farther behind which is what happens currently in small campaigns with Spyrers, to both the Spyrers themselves and other gangs playing them. The gang rating system just does not work for them on any level.

Edit: I would still really like to come up with an incentive for Spyrers to win a game (there currently is none whatsoever). Nothing yet though.
 
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Loriel

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well, winning game is "always the goal", but I understand complete what you mean about that. truth be told with spyrers doesn't usually really matter do you win or not, in terms of progress. Naturally when you lose then you are going to (most likely) take serious injuries so there is the incentive for winning =)

I think spyrer are great when you focus on Vow. I makes the entire hunt feel more like "one big game", and individual games are just chapters on the journey.
 

Shadowbadger

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Yeah that is what I mean, it does not matter if they win by scenario, or if they bottle. It is all about avoiding death (or death by capture) and getting good rolls for XP and advances, which are not affected by the game outcome.

The kill vow works in terms of trying to complete it, but it, and the others for that matter, just take time so if you do not get it that game you can bottle (and still get all your XP) and try to get it next time.

What I kind of have in mind is either some adjusted vows or some kind of per game mini-vows are things like achievements (the ones you see in every PC game these days). They would give you some kind of bonus although nothing major as to not be game breaking. There could be extra XP for winning, a penalty for losing etc etc. I really should flesh this out. I do not mean as something to push into OCE, it is just an idea I have for house rules atm. I spent my whole last campaign as Spyrers, mostly against a Redemption Crusade with a Ld10 Priest (originally a Deacon) leading them, and my opponent NEVER bottled. Unless he had no guys standing. Having a lot of Redemption vs Spyre showed up a few things which will be less of an issue for most although I still think some little tweaks could add flavour, purpose and balance.

I would look at the alternate rating for your campaigns though, it does seem to "just work". Passing the eyeball test both when the Spyrers are having a bad campaign and when their opponents are.
 
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Loriel

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One way to "fix" the survive 10 rounds to be more fluffy is to make it win 5 games for example. Or survive atleast 10 rounds and win atleast 5 games.

I haven't still enforced any of the house rules I though for the Spyrers. What I mainly have in mind:
  • Techno skill tree alteration, currenlty 3 skills is complete useless for spyrers.
    • A) Make it reroll if one would happend, this would make medi c much more easier to gain, but perhaps that wouldn't be such a outrageous thing for spyrers.
    • B) any of the three useless skills is powerup instead (roll again from powerup table)
    • C) They have unique effect, (this is just brainstorming ideas)
      • Inventor:
        • On a 6+ in post battle sequenquence you can swap any advancement gained to another advancement or skill roll.
        • On a 6+ in post battle sequence a new power up is gained for free for one of your spyrer
        • On a 6+ in post battle your spyrer makes one in a million weapon for any of your current spyrers (immune to ammorolls) (this would be most inline with inventor skill and probably the easiest to implement.)
        • On a 6+ in post battle sequence spyrer manages to do replacement part for injuries.
        • On a 6+ one of the spyrer gains force field
        • On a x+ the next game spyrers gain some benefit, like next game spyrers can reroll armor saves of 1, or may reroll 1 roll of 1 in close combat etc. something temporary boost
      • Fixer
        • On a 6+ spyrer finds a healer that can remove one serious injury
        • Fixer knows rumours and stuff and gives +1-1 scenario roll
        • On a 4+ Spyrer gains a doze of underhive drugs from outlaw trading post.
        • Spyrer gains additional neuroware but cannot take same characteristic twice.
      • Specialist
        • It will increase range of shooting attacks by 4 inch
        • It will give finishing move in close combat (for every two hit in close combat spyrer may do one double str hit)
        • In close combat spyrer may reroll one roll of 1
        • Spyrer gains extra weapon, like flamer, grenade launcher, melta gun, or similar weapon as pitslaves have (like hammer, shears but naturally more pristine versions). This would count as extra hand.
        • Spyrer gains tactical grenades like smoke, scare, hallocunigenous etc. However these are one use only, and can be used alongside normal shooting, but not after running (unless hip shooting)
  • Loot counter special rule
    • Spyrer cannot interract with loot counters during battle, but if a one or more loot counter is left on battlefield after spyrers won or they killed an captured prisoner they may "claim it". add loot counter to your stash. In any gang fight or similar scenario where it would make sense for spyrers to field a trap, they may place loot counter at the start of game roughly in the middle. If they do the spyrer player may choose which player chooses the table edge first and choose which player starts the game first. The loot counter is worth 5d6 if the other gang claims it. As spyrers aren't that particular interested on the loots they will leave this loot behind even if they would win.
  • Rogue Spyrer rule
    • (I would remove the rule that allows returning to the spire before vow is fullfilled. Player who doesn't want to play the spyrers anymore simple abandon their gang and starts a new one)
    • If the spyrer hunt has only 1 spyrer left it becomes known as Rogue. (Again brainstroming ideas)
      • Everytime rogue survives the game he gains additional d6 experience.
      • Additionally rogue spyrer is extremely evasive and hard to track, he gains as free boost infiltratrion, but if he allready have infiltratrion (or gains it afterwards) he gains supreme infiltration which allows him to do his infiltration before the start of game instead at the end of first turn. If scenario doesn't allow special deployment rules try to figure out some way to represent this if that is possible. For example spyrer player may choose table edge or deployment order instead of rolling. etc. This extra inflitratrion will be lost if and when spyrer returns to spire and comes back with a new hunt. (naturally keeps normal infliltration should he gained such)
      • Rogue spyrer can start the game hiding, if he is in cover as per normal hiding rules.
      • Rogue Spyrer gives him +1-1 scenario roll modifier, which represents his superior ability to evade larger gangs.
      • Rogue Spyrer becomes also a legend among the hive. The gang that manages to kill / capture the rogue will gain extra credits equal the number of experience the rogue has gained before captured / death. (or something similar)
      • Rogue spyrer yields extra 5 points per wounding hit (so total 15)
      • Unlocks certain rogue spyrer scenarios (I was thinking about this hidden token style scenario where 2 or more gangs joins the hunt and the spyrer isn't placed on table but rather these "hidden markers that are moved in the tbale instead" OR make it similar mechanic as lair of the beast, but with the rogue spyrer (especially if he is the Malcadon)
      • The ganger that manages to kill the rogue will gain additional 20 experience and gains Rogue Slayer title.
      • If Rogue Spyrer manages to out of action enemy the enemy gains on a 4+ bitter enmity against the rogue additional to any other serious injury they would take.
      • Rogue spyrer isn't as scaring as full gang of spyrers. To represent this any fear test will have cold booded (roll d6 and discard highest one). OR rogue spyrer is much more scarier than gang, as it is a legend. -1 ld, or 3d6 test discarding lowest one
Something like this... dunno ;) just thinking out load
 

Shadowbadger

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I like a lot of those ideas @Loriel although I would tame some of them a bit. Whilst I do not think Spyrers in their current OCE rules are in anyway OP, you could very easily make them so. It is probably easiest if I comment inline in green / red / yellow (for what I think is a good idea / bad idea / good but be careful). These are only my thoughts based on playing OCE Spyrers and I am not an expert.

One way to "fix" the survive 10 rounds to be more fluffy is to make it win 5 games for example. Or survive atleast 10 rounds and win atleast 5 games.

I haven't still enforced any of the house rules I though for the Spyrers. What I mainly have in mind:
  • Techno skill tree alteration, currenlty 3 skills is complete useless for spyrers.
    • A) Make it reroll if one would happend, this would make medi c much more easier to gain, but perhaps that wouldn't be such a outrageous thing for spyrers. I am not sure how useful any of the techno skills are tbh. Giving them medic may be OP as when they go back uphive they already get complete healing, all injuries, everything. Yes you need to get back up-hive to do it but that is some really powerful healing already. In my opinion Spyrers should have to suffer through wounds whilst downhive, from both a game and fluff perspective. My only issue is that when some of them die, the others should be rewarded for picking up the slack (their parents would be impressed at such a thing).
    • B) any of the three useless skills is powerup instead (roll again from powerup table) Maybe, but Boosts are very powerful and you only get them one every 9 advances, upping that could make them too good. We have a house rule where you can +/- 1 to a single advance roll in each post game (per gang). There is an exception though in our house rule to stop Spyrers taking Boosts this way, for that reason.
    • C) They have unique effect, (this is just brainstorming ideas)
      • Inventor:
        • On a 6+ in post battle sequenquence you can swap any advancement gained to another advancement or skill roll. A kind of morphing thing, I like this but perhaps it would need restrained to the same table or main roll (like swap WS for BS is fine, but WS for T is not). Also as per B I would exempt Boosts.
        • On a 6+ in post battle sequence a new power up is gained for free for one of your spyrer Same as B
        • On a 6+ in post battle your spyrer makes one in a million weapon for any of your current spyrers (immune to ammorolls) (this would be most inline with inventor skill and probably the easiest to implement.) I assume you mean one of the standard Spyre weapons as things like Plasma Guns would be really OP. I do not have a problem with this one, it is only a slight improvement given their 2+ ammo roll across the board anyway. This is actually the kind of thing I wanted to add, a very, very slight improvement.
        • On a 6+ in post battle sequence spyrer manages to do replacement part for injuries. See A
        • On a 6+ one of the spyrer gains force field. This could stack for some really OP stuff. See my gang, they already have some really hard to kill models.
        • On a x+ the next game spyrers gain some benefit, like next game spyrers can reroll armor saves of 1, or may reroll 1 roll of 1 in close combat etc. something temporary boost. I like this, almost like a kind of combat drug or killing spree high. I would say that it would be best to try at least to begin with that the Spyrer who gets it can reroll one armour save or initiative test, or CC single dice, once per game.
      • Fixer
        • On a 6+ spyrer finds a healer that can remove one serious injury See A
        • Fixer knows rumours and stuff and gives +1-1 scenario roll Spyrers already are good with this but I do not think it will do all that much harm either.
        • On a 4+ Spyrer gains a doze of underhive drugs from outlaw trading post. This was one of the things I was thinking, rich kid goes off the rails and gets hooked on Slaught or something. But, they could get hooked which would force you into a custom scenerio to raid for drugs.
        • Spyrer gains additional neuroware but cannot take same characteristic twice. This could lead to some wildly OP stuff.
      • Specialist
        • It will increase range of shooting attacks by 4 inch. This negates what is in my mind the biggest drawbrack of OCE Spyre hunters. My Orrus is deadly with his bolt launchers, giving him more range would be a bit unfair.
        • It will give finishing move in close combat (for every two hit in close combat spyrer may do one double str hit). Look at my Jakara . . . against my main Redemption opponent she was nearly unbeatable in HTH. They really do not need more CC power.
        • In close combat spyrer may reroll one roll of 1. Again, they really do not need more CC.
        • Spyrer gains extra weapon, like flamer, grenade launcher, melta gun, or similar weapon as pitslaves have (like hammer, shears but naturally more pristine versions). This would count as extra hand. Spyrer weapons in OCE are fairly well tuned as to not be too over the top. If they get things line nade launchers and melta guns they would just become monstrous.
        • Spyrer gains tactical grenades like smoke, scare, hallocunigenous etc. However these are one use only, and can be used alongside normal shooting, but not after running (unless hip shooting). I like this, some of the more novel (and not direct damage like Krak or Plasma) would be really cool in this capacity.
  • Loot counter special rule
    • Spyrer cannot interract with loot counters during battle, but if a one or more loot counter is left on battlefield after spyrers won or they killed an captured prisoner they may "claim it". add loot counter to your stash. In any gang fight or similar scenario where it would make sense for spyrers to field a trap, they may place loot counter at the start of game roughly in the middle. If they do the spyrer player may choose which player chooses the table edge first and choose which player starts the game first. The loot counter is worth 5d6 if the other gang claims it. As spyrers aren't that particular interested on the loots they will leave this loot behind even if they would win. I like the idea of capturing loot for future bait a lot, although I thought Spyrers could pickup loot counters . . . just to be dicks . . . and I think they should be able to just plain pick them up and take them, even though they have no use for the credits.
  • Rogue Spyrer rule
    • (I would remove the rule that allows returning to the spire before vow is fullfilled. Player who doesn't want to play the spyrers anymore simple abandon their gang and starts a new one). I do not think this will work at all. Think about it, 4 games in a Hunt loses 3 members. Every other gang has a bunch of XP, new members and gear. A fresh Spyre Hunt, with no underdog bonuses is never going to catch up. It is not like returning early is a sure thing either, you will lose like half of your remaining team anyway so more often than not you will get one of your guys back and maybe one of your veterans back down with them.
    • If the spyrer hunt has only 1 spyrer left it becomes known as Rogue. (Again brainstroming ideas)
      • Everytime rogue survives the game he gains additional d6 experience. Interesting but this would not be enough to keep pace.
      • Additionally rogue spyrer is extremely evasive and hard to track, he gains as free boost infiltratrion, but if he allready have infiltratrion (or gains it afterwards) he gains supreme infiltration which allows him to do his infiltration before the start of game instead at the end of first turn. If scenario doesn't allow special deployment rules try to figure out some way to represent this if that is possible. For example spyrer player may choose table edge or deployment order instead of rolling. etc. This extra inflitratrion will be lost if and when spyrer returns to spire and comes back with a new hunt. (naturally keeps normal infliltration should he gained such) Whilst this all would be an unlikely series of events I really like it. Complete lone wolf stuff.
      • Rogue spyrer can start the game hiding, if he is in cover as per normal hiding rules. yes
      • Rogue Spyrer gives him +1-1 scenario roll modifier, which represents his superior ability to evade larger gangs. yes
      • Rogue Spyrer becomes also a legend among the hive. The gang that manages to kill / capture the rogue will gain extra credits equal the number of experience the rogue has gained before captured / death. (or something similar)
      • Rogue spyrer yields extra 5 points per wounding hit (so total 15) yes
      • Unlocks certain rogue spyrer scenarios (I was thinking about this hidden token style scenario where 2 or more gangs joins the hunt and the spyrer isn't placed on table but rather these "hidden markers that are moved in the tbale instead" OR make it similar mechanic as lair of the beast, but with the rogue spyrer (especially if he is the Malcadon) yes
      • The ganger that manages to kill the rogue will gain additional 20 experience and gains Rogue Slayer title. yes although perhaps make it based on how many advances the rogue has, as this could end up being a 20XP bonus for quite a crap Spyrer.
      • If Rogue Spyrer manages to out of action enemy the enemy gains on a 4+ bitter enmity against the rogue additional to any other serious injury they would take. Not sure on this one, it would end up with so many bitter emnities in some cases. Perhaps better the other way, if a Rogue goes down but survives then he would have the Bitter Emnity.
      • Rogue spyrer isn't as scaring as full gang of spyrers. To represent this any fear test will have cold booded (roll d6 and discard highest one). OR rogue spyrer is much more scarier than gang, as it is a legend. -1 ld, or 3d6 test discarding lowest one. Too much of a nerf for a gang of one. Have you ever seen The Wire? This guy is Omar . . .
Something like this... dunno ;) just thinking out load

A lot of good ideas there and I really like the lone wolf rogue stuff. A lot of the other advances and 6+ (model gains whatever) are imho too much. The OCE rules are in my mind actually really well balanced now except for the Gang Rating. Before trying anything else I would strongly advise trying my Gang Rating formula as it fixes so many issues. With that as a base you can then see what needs tweaking. Otherwise what could end up happening is fixing several issues by breaking several other things. I prefer one clean fix.

I really like this Rogue stuff though. It could also be voluntary, a specific vow. You take one of your guys back after a hunt, retire the rest and he is the Rogue.

Some of my ideas which I will write up when I can, were based on mini-vows. Like kill a heavy, kill 2 models in one game, capture a model or basically anything that can be done in one game. You would then get some kind of honour or prestige points which when you return above the wall could be turned in for equipment. This could be things like clip harness, grapnel, grav chute . . . nothing directly powerful . . . no guns. Maybe the tactical grenades. This would not mean tooling the Spyrers up with heaps of stuff after every game. I mean after a completed vow maybe one of them would get Smore Grenades . . . that's it.

As I say they are fairly balanced already so be careful

Edit: Also, as an example of Gang Rating and how it does not work. Look at my gang (https://yaktribe.org/necromunda/gan...da/gang/view/16167/Death+Stalks+the+Underhive). Does it look like Gang Rating of 1519 correctly reflects how strong it is? Then think I have a friend who lost a leader but still had a Gang Rating of like 1550. He got no underdog or giant killer bonus so it was real hard for him to catch up. The new formula passed the eyeball test in that with a new rating of 1980 for my gang, my friend then for like 4 or 5 XP for gangers who survived me, then he beat me once and got like 50 credits. It all seemed reasonable and fair.
 

Loriel

Gang Hero
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Thanks for excellent reply @Shadowbadger ! I actually realized that there is no other way to get techno skill other than having all the eligible skills taken, so technically that is taken care of. Perhaps techno skills could be atteined from power boost after they are all exhausted etc.


- With one in a million I meant the standard spyrer weapons.

- I don't know if rerolling one fumble in combat would be too overpower compared to many combat skills.

- What weould you think about increasing short range with specialist? like 4 inches more for short?

- I think the picking up loots to be dicks... well I don't personally see this they probably wouldn't even realize those random sheets of metal is even a loot.

- One thing with the Rogue rules is that I wanted to give them some nice boost but nerf, to keep it "balance". I cannot think of much else than extra xp and bitter enmities is very fluffy thing (but also powerfull boost), that is why I included bitter enmities as reward for my custom spyrer scenario.

- OMAR! indeed! Well I was thingking about either having it cold blooded in positive or negative sense. For Omar, definately cold blooded in positive sense.

I like the "After completing" getting some boost like smoke grenades ;) really good idea.
 
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Loriel

Gang Hero
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Kangasala, Finland
HOUSE HARKONNEN - Running, Torturing, Gang Fighting and Scavenging!

Ok, time to post update from four games:
- Runningman (that is also on yakamble)
- Tortured captive,
- 4ppl gang fight
- 4ppl scavengers


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In a sense I am very happy to get one game per page. It will naturally leave some information out of it, but I think it is still better, especially when I do 4 game reports at once ;) In a way I am very happy that the extra Jakara died, because I think there shouldn't be any double suits.
 

Shadowbadger

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@Loriel . . . . are you the guy who did the video battle reports a while back? I seem to remember some where I could not understand them (but they were subtitled English and very good). Those cartoon strip ones are awesome!

With regards to giving Spyrers rerolls for 1s . . . or any other kind of CC buff . . . my albeit small group has already had to introduce a version of the HTH house rules which came from the discussion with @Goobahfish and @Blood Donor (here). What we do is:
  • Models can only inflict as many wounds as they have total attacks (after second weapon bonuses, skills etc)
  • Double handed weapons roll two dice to wound (like the Orrus Bolt Launcher mechanic) unless they are already better than that.
This was because Spyrers could end up being really savage in HTH combat. My friends Redemption Zealot was just cut Julienne on a repeated basis by my Jakara, who was frequently winning HTH by 8-10 points, almost guaranteeing a down and out. Some of your shooting stuff might be workable but I would be really, really careful adding anything HTH to Spyrers. It is not that is OP compared with Combat Skills, it is that Spyrers can get said Combat Skills as well

Perhaps adding 2" to the range as some kind of bonus rather than the 4", that would help but not be too insane for shooty stuff bonuses.

I still think giving Bitter Emnity to opponents of the Rogue is a bit much, even one tough Spyrer is going to struggle a lot against a whole gang.
 
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Loriel

Gang Hero
Nov 27, 2013
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Kangasala, Finland
@Shadowbadger Thanks for kind words! if you refer my ratskin reports (which can be found on this thread) yep, I am the guy. I started to do comic strips for my Roughneck pit slave gang (after getting inspired by Jonbos comic strip report) When I started the ratskins I though that I wanted to do something differently and decided to start vidreps. My goal was to make vidrep from every game played, but I quickly realized multiple problems with the vidreps, one thing was that they take significantly more time to make and they are lot more tedious work (in other words, the making of the report didn't realli give me jizz, as does making comic strips.) For example the Johan Oakness joke (which refers to finnish legendary ice hockey commentary Juhani Tamminen, ( Tammi is Oak directly translated and it is common to have -nen at end of surname in Finland)

Secondly I faced a technical issue when to do them. If my children are awake (this small apartment that we are living) I would have tons of noice problems, when they are not I need to be rather quiet. So only option would be to do them when I am alone home or somewhere else.

Third problem was that I wasn't too satisfied of the quality of the reports and to increase the quality, to something like miniwargame / game of domes level would require even more work. (naturally the epic style from la guerra au garage
would be extremely awesome.)

-----

For me the reduction max inflicted wounds to attack roll will make wounds even more awesome attribute that they are now (imo the most important characteristic there). As hand to hand combat is still one of the cost effective ways to tackle those wound mongrels ;) I do understand the idea that in heavily CC orientated group these kind of nerfs might be necessary. Perhaps it could be turned that they can cause injury rolls only the maximum attack, which would leave 1/6 chance of survival with fleswound and in case of high impacts reduce the chance high impact strikes would occure (my rat skin bone prophet was high impact massacer)
 
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trollmeat

Hive Guilder
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Nov 5, 2014
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Earn 200 XP for each gang member a Total of 250 XP. One slight change from ORB I hadn't noticed ;-)

Instead of duplicating, perhaps you can test some Vatra/Firebat rules out? :-D
 
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Loriel

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HOUSE HARKONNEN - HUNTING THE HOBOES

I played three games, but made battle report out of two of them. I will publish the third game in near future.

Played games were simple gang fight and shoot out


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The fact that Farad didn't participate in the shoot out. If for example Nayk would have being out of shoot out, most likely he would still be around. I rolled really well on the 2d6 winning side and got rather ok held nerve experience. Should that happened I would still have one of the better spyrers left.

Well this is necromunda and random stuff are bound to happend. I will come to the last vow (10 games) and most likely my Spyrer days are retired after that...

One the bright side it was really really funny to steam roll with the Nayk through hoboes in the first game!
 
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