N18 Yes, yes, more Delaque

[Boeruine]

Salutations. I'll be playing in my first campaign and looking for something sneaky and fun. I know guys that will also be playing as Cawdor and Palanite, with the final undecided but likely Goliath. I am not looking to specifically counter anything, and not sure if I even could, because they seem to run the gamut. Initially I was going to skip any psychoteric powers being a beginner, but have changed my list several times, and have decided to at least dip my toe in with one ganger. My current list is:

Master of Shadow w/ grav gun and stub gun, mesh and Overwatch.
Ghost w/ long rifle and mesh.
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Nacht-Ghul w/ Serpents Fangs, mesh and Spring Up.
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Ghost 1 w/ Lasgun
Ghost 2 w/ Lasgun
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Psy-Gheist w/ Stubgun (w/dumdum rounds), smoke grenades, mesh and Spatial Psychosis
Shadow 1 w/ Web pistol and autopistol
Shadow 2 w/Web pistol and autopistol

I'm look at four maneuver elements, broken down as denoted above. Obviously the goal would be to get the psy-gheist and shadows into position to take out any chaff with web + coup de grace. The 2x ghosts can support the nacht-ghul getting into range with whatever big bad the enemy has brought, and the Master and sniper just causing some chaos.

I'd look to try and power level the psy-gheist as fast as possible and grab some willpower upgrades and new powers. I could possibly look at a psychomancers harness as well, and then team him up with the nacht-ghul and figure out a new role for the juves.

Is two web pistols out the gate a little too much? I think the pistols only being S4 and the range at least makes it less oppressive than if I was brining two web guns. Am I missing anything else? I don't know which way the Cawdor player is leaning in faith vs fire, but I'm somewhat worried if he goes blaze heavy with it become a template war. I guess the bonus would be the possibility of cranking out that extra xp with the coup de grace against a bunch of basic gangers and juves?

 

[HugeSamples]

Your list is filled with duplicate loadouts and is a bit "boring."

• Master of Shadows: Drop the stub gun unless you have an extra 5 credits lying around.
• Psy-Gheist: This fighter is way over-equipped. If this model isn't using its powers at every opportunity, or getting into position to do so, then you've wasted your credits. You're better off using a cheap Shadow or Ghost as a "smoker." Similarly, drop the dum-dum rounds unless you're going the melee route. If you are going the melee route, whatever power you give it is pretty irrelevant, as there are far too many melee stats you need to spend XP on and you can't afford to waste XP on Will upgrades. Unfortunately Psy-Gheists are in an awkward position. They aren't really great psykers---their starting powers are lackluster and they need a lot of Will upgrades to become reliable. They aren't great at melee either---there are a lot of melee stats you need to upgrade (WS, A, T, W) and they are a liability as an unsanctioned psyker. I stil like to run one, but I never expect much out of it.
• Ghost 1: Turn this into something else for variety---maybe an autogun.
• Shadow 1: Drop this and pick up another champion-level fighter, probably a Phantom, but a second Natch-Ghul (with a different loadout) is fine.
• Shadow 2: Drop the autopistol unless you have an extra 5 credits lying around. You should consider giving this model the mesh armor rather than the Psy-Gheist.

Aim to have somewhere between 8 and 10 fighters in your starting roster.

 

[Beebopalulla]

I’m a bit confused by your list.

You may face Goliaths who will laugh at autopistols, and once they get into contact, they will turn your Delaques into origami. You may face Cawdor, who will overwhelm you with numbers. And Enforcers, depending on the precinct or whether they are Badzone Enforcers, may bring something very different.

Also, the new Hive Watcher can screw up your infiltration plan for a mere 30 credits.

The Nacht-Ghul is always great, and it is a good counter to some charging Goliaths. You definitely need cheap bodies. I would advise looking at alliances that give you plenty of dirt-cheap helpers.

 

[RixxyAGoGo]

I do like the idea that you've broken the gang down into elements that might operate together, but it does beg a questions:

- If your leader is paired up with your long rifle ghost, they have pretty mismatched ranges. Max range on a grav gun is 18", which is doesn't even hit the short range of the long rifle; if you want them both to be effective, they are going to probably want to split up.

As far as equipment is concerned:

- While it is nice to have a backup weapon just in case, the autopistols on the juves and stub gun on the leader is a bit of a credit sink when that could be used to pick up a suit of mesh somewhere - probably on one of the juves because a guy with a web pistol is liable to draw fire!
- Two web pistols out of the gate might be a bit much. If you drop one of the juves and his kit, that gives you enough to pick up a ghost with a shotgun and some mesh with a little left over; you keep a close-range fighter that out-ranges a template but has the potential to be a bit more directly killy.

I don't mind duplicate equipment fighters myself so much, since I think it has its place.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

I’m a bit confused by your list.

You may face Goliaths who will laugh at autopistols, and once they get into contact, they will turn your Delaques into origami.

While pretty true until you learn how to cut folk to ribbons with Delaque, the Goliath's do laugh at Autopistols. But they do look forlornly at Rapid Fire.

You may face Cawdor, who will overwhelm you with numbers

Overwhelm you with XP do you mean?
What do you mean the correct pronunciation for Bonepickers isn't ablative armour?...

The Nacht-Ghul is always great, and it is a good counter to some charging Goliaths.

Or counter to charging anyone.
Or doing it yourself.
Anyone with access to Phase and Sever minces whomever they want.
Plus the Sword one is the coolest blade fighter GW have produced in years.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Salutations.

Salutations on using the word salutations.

I see you paired up your guys and girls into combat teams. In principle this is an excellent call especially for Delaque (and Van Saar incidentally) and it is a strong general idea. There is a caveat however. People get hurt. Injuries can rob a team of a critical member and if you are locked into that pair doing that job and nothing else it can be hard to adapt. It's better to learn and know how each fighter can contribute and be contributed to any other fighter. If your sniper is not available for cover fire to extract your Naght Ghul one of your lasgunners can at least pin a foe to help. If your Shadows are unavailable your Psy geist can't partner with web but it can, as your initial list, can Smoke grenade. And so on.
Delaque in particular need to be adaptable. Don't have one plan for a fighter have three or more that can be used in different teams and situations.

Master of Shadow w/ grav gun and stub gun, mesh and Overwatch.
Ghost w/ long rifle and mesh.

A firepower team? The range disparity between the long rifle and grav gun is pretty significant so are hard to use in synergy. It can be done but is harder to coordinate when the ghost is 24" away.
Now both kits are decent although for founding they can be over equipped.
The Ghost can be active and a threat 25"+ away. Unless they are facing other long rifles and other long range guns they don't face much incoming fire so could skip the Mesh until later. It could go to a more up and personal fighter.
For Delaque, and only Delaque, they have a discount on Autopistols for the same price as the stub gun. With rapid fire and multiple ammo types there is a decent upgrade potential to that sidearm. For the same price as the stub gun it is a serious contender for a up piece. Normally I would favour the stub gun but the Delaque discount is tempting. Consider Rad rounds later. Rapid fire Rad Phage (which bypasses armour) is pretty sweet.

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Nacht-Ghul w/ Serpents Fangs, mesh and Spring Up.

Learn the ins and outs of From the Shadows. Naght Ghuls are just plain nasty. A later purchase of a Grapnel Launcher is a thought. Pop up, mince a target or two then Tarzan to safety.

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Ghost 1 w/ Lasgun
Ghost 2 w/ Lasgun

Ignore all comments of lasgun ganger spam loadouts being boring. They are just so reliable and effective as pinners and workaday gunners. I would use these two for providing cover for others not necessarily together to aid others.

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Psy-Gheist w/ Stubgun (w/dumdum rounds), smoke grenades, mesh and Spatial Psychosis
Shadow 1 w/ Web pistol and autopistol
Shadow 2 w/Web pistol and autopistol

These three I would change a few things. I would drop a Shadow (see further on).
Take the mesh from the long rifle Ghost and give it to the Shadow. They will need a bit of armour to survive. I would Stub gun over Autopistol here for the accuracy bonus.
Your Psy-Gheist is oddly equipped for it's role. That fighter, and the Shadow, is BS 5+. They ain't hitting much at range. It's not really worth spending much there. At least if you miss with smokes it won't harm your own fighters unlike a too close frag grenade. If you have Spatial psychosis you will probably be using that at range rather than the pistol (you can do it twice after all every turn)

I'm look at four maneuver elements, broken down as denoted above. Obviously the goal would be to get the psy-gheist and shadows into position to take out any chaff with web + coup de grace. The 2x ghosts can support the nacht-ghul getting into range with whatever big bad the enemy has brought, and the Master and sniper just causing some chaos.

I'd look to try and power level the psy-gheist as fast as possible and grab some willpower upgrades and new powers. I could possibly look at a psychomancers harness as well, and then team him up with the nacht-ghul and figure out a new role for the juves.

That is my favourite Psy-Gheist build.
Often I only have the one power though get the willpower to be reliable and boost it's combat abilities with the harness and stats. By using web and coup de Grace combos you can very quickly rack up XP. They are my most effective prospects.

Is two web pistols out the gate a little too much? I think the pistols only being S4 and the range at least makes it less oppressive than if I was brining two web guns.

Cawdor and Enforcers baseline T is 3 so a Web pistol wounds on 3+ and ignores armour. That is plenty enough for them to be effective. Even for Goliath T4 is a 4+ which is still decent.
The range is the same for pistols and guns so that's a none issue over the two weapons.
For the Cawdor and Enforcers based on their baseline T a jump from S4 to S5 actually makes no difference. It's still a 3+ wound on them. The bigger gun only makes sense if you are facing a lot of T5+ fighters really. The pistol will do a good job against most foes including normal Goliaths.

Am I missing anything else? I don't know which way the Cawdor player is leaning in faith vs fire, but I'm somewhat worried if he goes blaze heavy with it become a template war.

If you face Cawdor it's a Template war. The Blunderpole, flamers and more. They are everywhere. It will happen. It's best to shoot them long range before the Templates hit or just Murder them at their own game. With Web pistols all over the armoury Delaque are very well placed to beat Cawdor in the Template war probably best placed out of all the gangs.

I guess the bonus would be the possibility of cranking out that extra xp with the coup de grace against a bunch of basic gangers and juves?

That's what Web is for. You have it. Use it.
It's not just for Ganger and Juve targets. Most normal champions and leaders are T3 or 4 on average. They are equally vulnerable to a Web than any ganger. Webbed fighters are just XP waiting to happen. So they don't get compound flesh wounds like a Serious Injury. So what? You Coup de Graced them long before they could bleed out.

 

[Boeruine]

I've gone back to the drawing board a bit and shaken things up based on feedback and trying to "diversify" a bit more. I'm looking to add some more narrative than originally planned, so I don't need a super competitive list... We will also be predominantly playing on Zone Mortalis boards, with only a smattering of Ash Wastes. I'm now looking at something like this:

Short to Mid Range Ballistic Combat:
1x Master of Shadows w/ flechette pistol, mesh and spring up. I will upgrade to 2x flechette and either gunfighter or hip shooting as the game goes on. Keep that Matrix vibe going.
1x Ghost w/ shotgun and mesh.

Heat Seeking Missile:
1x Nacht-ghul w/ serpent fangs and spring up (standard build out), no real changes here.

Sniper:
1x Phantom w/ master craft lasgun and overwatch. Possibly upgrade to lascannon down the road. He can give some board control and later on take out a big bad as necessary.

Mid to Long Range Support:
1x Ghost w/ Lasgun
1x Ghost w/Autogun and smokes

Close Range:
1x Psygheist w/ Laspistol, Stun Grenades, Mesh and Spatial Psychosis- we are allowed to take wyrd powers for successive abilities as long as the first power comes from the Delaque powers. Stayiong on that CDG train for the first few levels to get willpower up and then hope for something strong on the Wyrd side.
1x Shadow w/ webpistol, stub gun w/ dumdum

1x Whisper Merchant

 

[HugeSamples]

This looks like a much more interesting list.

I have a few notes:

• Master of Shadows: Shooting is a secondary skill, so it will be a bit more expensive to pick up.
• Psy-gheist: This fighter is once again over-equipped. The stun grenade + spatial psychosis combo is clever; however, grenades have a very short range, and you are going to need to bump your Ballistic Skill to get reliable results. If you're planning on getting the harness in addition to the wyrms, trying to bump Ballistic Skill on top of Willpower, Melee, and survival stats is going to be a tall order.
• Shadow: A backup pistol right out of the gate isn't really necessary.

Dropping the stun grenades and the stub gun + dum-dum rounds will net you 20 credits to spend on something else, such as mesh armor for the Nacht-ghul or the Shadow. If you also drop the laspistol on the Psy-gheist, that is another 10 credits. This brings you up to 15 credits remaining after buying the first set of mesh armor, allowing you to afford a second set for the other fighter who needs it.

If you're playing Ash Wastes then the stock of the Long Rifle goes up. IIRC things are always at long range in the Ash Wastes? (I don't play much if any Ash Wastes).

 

[Lunarcruiser]

I've gone back to the drawing board a bit and shaken things up based on feedback and trying to "diversify" a bit more. I'm looking to add some more narrative than originally planned, so I don't need a super competitive list... We will also be predominantly playing on Zone Mortalis boards, with only a smattering of Ash Wastes. I'm now looking at something like this:

Zone Mortalis has a lot of cover so long range can be less of an issue. For both sides.

Short to Mid Range Ballistic Combat:
1x Master of Shadows w/ flechette pistol, mesh and spring up. I will upgrade to 2x flechette and either gunfighter or hip shooting as the game goes on. Keep that Matrix vibe going.
1x Ghost w/ shotgun and mesh.

Heat Seeking Missile:
1x Nacht-ghul w/ serpent fangs and spring up (standard build out), no real changes here.

He/she needs armour. @HugeSamples has some suggestions as do others in this thread. He will pop up and mince a few folk then get shot a LOT. You need an extraction plan for them and even a Mesh suit goes a long way when starting out

1x Phantom w/ master craft lasgun and overwatch. Possibly upgrade to lascannon down the road. He can give some board control and later on take out a big bad as necessary.

I wouldn't bother master crafting a lasgun for a champion sniper. You already have BS 3+, a +1 accuracy bonus at 18" on a Mortalis board and maybe another +1 from Aim. That's a 1+ hit. Which fails on a 1. Add cover and that's a 2+ hit which still fails on 1. A once a game re roll on a S3 D1 AP-1 hit isn't really worth it. Just take the roll of 1 on the chin and move on.
If you really need a critical shot to succeed with that reroll, make it with a harder hitting gun. (You can TP master crafted weapons later).
Don't go down the Lascannon route. Delaque really need to be fluid, adaptable and mobile. Unwieldy is a killer trait for you. If you can use shoot your opponent can see you and fire back, usually with another fighter who is not hit by the anti tank weapon. Yes you can get a Suspensor for that Cannon for 60 credits. (Or a Ghost with Shotgun). On top of the 155 credit cannon. It is a very expensive way to cost your fluidity and mobility.
Also the Cannon take up two of your weapon slots (suspensors or not). Now a lasgun, with Hot shot and other upgrades, is a perfectly serviceable back up gun for when the power cells run dry or you don't have suspensors on the cannon and need to move and shoot but those will be the two weapons you have. One of the best ways to deal with a sniper is getting in close and smacking them in the face. Other people have infiltrate and methods of getting close in shot too. A serviceable melee weapon is a thing to think about getting for any sniper at some point for when the foes get two close. Phantoms also have WS 3+ and can dish out some hurt in melee if required. A Double slot gun and a Back up piece leaves you with no option to get even a Fighting Knife. Adaptability is a key feature of the Delaque.

Mid to Long Range Support:
1x Ghost w/ Lasgun
1x Ghost w/Autogun and smokes

Smokes are useful but for long range support they are more limited. They don't have range to act with your auto gun so can just be used to drop cover. Which you can't shoot through either.
If you go and give them to a close fighter they can drop the protective smoke and your gunner can still shoot at other targets. Having a smoke cloud in your face cuts your visibility and fire arcs more than one 20" away. An auto gunner dropping one at Thier feet may stop incoming fire but not give the fire support to others. They are good choices for personal defence but less so for teamwork.

Close Range:
1x Psygheist w/ Laspistol, Stun Grenades, Mesh and Spatial Psychosis- we are allowed to take wyrd powers for successive abilities as long as the first power comes from the Delaque powers. Stayiong on that CDG train for the first few levels to get willpower up and then hope for something strong on the Wyrd side.

Other Powers are not Whispers and don't gain benefits from the Choir rules and as a second Power means you can't benefit from the solo discipline ability of the powers in Outcasts. Something to bear in mind. Plenty of the Whispers are decent with skill.
You have a acceptable WS but your BS is garbage. Shooting and especially grenades, with no Aim or accuracy bonus, is not a Psy-Gheists forte. You have to roll a ammo test every time you use a grenade and will most likely miss as well. A BS 5+ fighter is not a good grenadier. They are better choices for more accurate fighters. Especially ones who are not using Thier activation for Whispers. The Smoke grenade option is an exception. It doesn't hurt you if it misses and scatters into you and still provides the cover you need to avoid fire.

 

[Boeruine]

Sorry gents, the Nacht-Ghul did indeed have mesh I just didn't catch leaving it off.

I've gone down to a normal lasgun on the Phantom, dropped the stub gun on the shadow, dropped the stun grenades and with the 5 unspent credits I had- this gives all but the lasgun champ and ghost mesh.

Tracking that other wyrd powers won't get the choir rules, but looking to bring him some wyrms to increase the reach. My reading is that you can cast any wyrd power through a wyrm or thrall, correct? Still have the single smoke grenade on the list and wondering if I should carry a smoke on either the juve or psy-gheist as an escape mechanism if the web gun wiffs early. Or do I just scratch it and have only the "sniper" without mesh?

Is there a better option than the lascannon for upgrade after the lasgun runs its course? Plasma or boltgun? Or Do I pull him out of the long range roll and give him a webgun or gravgun to give close range support to another element? I feel like the second option might be more beneficial with a heavy dose of Cawdor coming my way.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Is there a better option than the lascannon for upgrade after the lasgun runs its course? Plasma or boltgun?

Either are stellar options for a mid ranged gun. The Plasma Gun is straight up shooty. High strength decent Ap and damage plus rapid fire. The high settings can melt most foes in one shot. Or yourself with Unstable. On low however (your workaday setting) it is trickier to choose over the Bolter.
The additional accuracy at short range is nice but your phantom doesn't really require an extra bonus (unless they have eye injuries). Against Cawdor and Enforcers the base line toughness is 3. Both the Bolter and low setting plasma gun wound that on 3+ and have the same AP and Damage. Against T4 Goliaths it's 3+ for the Plasma and 4+ the Bolter.
If you are in a High T environment the plasma shot pays off. In a low one (T3) it is not any better than the Bolter. And the plasma costs almost twice as much and if it runs out of charge you can't reload it.
If you are into fancy ammo (a decent option for Delaque as they have lasguns, auto weapons ,stub guns and shotguns on their lists) investing in a Bullet Merchant to change Limited into Scarce or Scarce to normal can pay off for the bullet fighters including Bolter users.
Grab some Gunk bolts for the bolt gun and you now can reload on 5+. Plus gunk people which can help setting Cawdor on fire in revenge. And/Shatter shells for the same Ammo roll plus a Aim capable improved Frag template at 24". Which can really improve the phantoms adaptability with a Blast option.

Or Do I pull him out of the long range roll and give him a webgun or gravgun to give close range support to another element?

Either are great options although see my previous comment on Web pistol and Gun comparisons.

I feel like the second option might be more beneficial with a heavy dose of Cawdor coming my way.

No matter what you do Cawdor will out Template you. Going like for like is not a real option. Shoot them before they get to Blunderpole range. Or stab them in the back safely.