Rules suggestions - Resolve hits

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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It's hard to talk about Shooting and Close Combat without it bleeding into Hit resolution, so here goes a brand new thread!

Save rolls:
These buggers... they vex me. Particularly how they relate to Field Armour. For example, you can make saves against hits that wound or cause an injury. But Field Armours all trigger on hit, and are specifically called out as a save. Field Armours in general aren't worded as saves; in fact, the word 'Save' or 'save roll' don't appear in any of their descriptions. Field Armours all say to ignore the hit entirely, which implies they prevent pinning... but according to the rules team they don't. I've seen them write that the Field Save takes place after the wound roll, but counts as cancelling the hit, but doesn't actually cancel any of the effects of the hit except the wound.

So yeah, that needs clarifying. Personally I want to take all the 'saves that aren't saves' like Omen of Fortune, Dodge and Field Armour and make a category called 'special saves' that trigger on a hit, and then make all the wound/injury saves 'Armour Saves'. Then you can simply clarify that Special Saves aren't affected by Armour Penetration once, as opposed to rewriting it every time one of these not-saves comes up. Then allow one special save against a hit, and one armour save against a wound/injury; keeps all the special saves valid, makes the field armours better, and stops the stacking of all the not-saves from skills and wargear

But that does go a bit beyond clarification! I do think the specific term 'Armour Save' should be a thing to allow for a bit more granularity; Power Weapons, for example, could ignore Armour Saves but not Special Saves.

Saves could really do with a 'fail on a natural 1' clause. It's way too easy to become immune to no-AP attacks. Someone told me they made a character that had a character with a "minus 2 plus" save once, at which point you would be immune to, say, Lascannons. An alternative here is to distinguish between something that improves a save characteristic and something that improves a save roll, and then say that a save characteristic cannot be improved beyond 2+. Then you could use wordings to make it impossible to get an armour save better than 5+ against a Lascannon (barring Reflec shroud), which feels... right.

As written in making a successful save roll against an Injury does not actually prevent the injury.

Do multiple Out of Action results generate multiple Lasting Injury rolls? This one is the crux of the issue with Sever, I think

Serious Injury should specify that the fighter becomes Prone and Seriously Injured

As written, Seriously Injuring a Fighter and then performing a Coup de Grace generates two Nerve Tests. It is also worth clarifying whether a fighter who is Broken needs to make these tests; after all, they are already broken, so can they 'become' broken? If their fighter card already has a Broken marker can they gain another one?
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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Save and save-adjacent mechanics really need to be streamlined and clarified. I love the idea of Special saves.

Also, I know it's heresy, but I'd also really like to have all the saves moved to before the Wound roll (mechanics that affect the armour save depending on the Wound roll would obviously have to be modified) or, failing that, to after the Wound roll.

It's more of a Wargear talk, but how the various 'types' of armour can be stacked also need to be reworked to make some kind of sense. It's completely ridiculous to have the Armoured bodyglove be armour while Armoured undersuit is personal equipment for instance, not to mention there is no limit to the number of shields a fighter can carry and use at the same time.
 

Kiro The Avenger

Gang Hero
Apr 4, 2018
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For armour, I think we should introduce the concept of 'layers'.
I think currently we functionally have a main layer, an underlayer, and an overlayer.
A fighter can only have one piece of wargear (just move all armour to a type of wargear) per layer.
We may even want to reduce the number of layers to prevent fighter stacking armours for insane saves.

We also need to clarify how hits are resolved.
My preference is for everything to be rolled simultaneously. So you roll all hits, then all wounds, then all saves, etc.

We also need coherent and consistent definitions of attacks, attack dice, wound rolls, and anything similar.
Say I hit someone with a bolter and two shots cause damage. Is that 1 injury roll, 2, or even 4?
 

Jayward

Ganger
Aug 4, 2020
167
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With Armour I'd rather go for the functionally simpler method of tweaking things like Ablative Overlay or Armoured Undersuit from 'May be worn in addition to armour' to 'may be combined with one piece of armour' so you can have an undersuit and armour, or an overlay and armour, but not both.

I agree on simultaneous hit resolution.

I think the rules are fairly clear cut on that last one being 4, aren't they? (Assuming a 1 wound fighter)
 
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Al_Weeks

Gang Hero
Honored Tribesman
Dec 22, 2014
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Big fan of the one 'underlay/overlay' may be worn in addition to one piece of armour.

I'm quite a fan of special saves (like dodge and field saves) been taken before the wound roll (and clarifying that they cancel the hit and prevent the fighter being pinned).

It would make the minor special saves like dodge more appealing.

Keeping armour saves after wound roles is fine. Moving them to before the wound rolls will just (to the outside world) seem changing things for no apparent reason.

The special saves at least we are being clear that they are taken before wounds because a successful save cancels a hit and that we are allowing special saves to layer with armour saves.

Big fan of all hits are resolved simultaneously (purely because its simpler and allows fast rolling, roll all to wounds, roll all saves, roll all damage dice etc).
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Guilder
Tribe Council
Dec 29, 2017
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Norway
Was looking for a place to discuss saves. Thanks! Anyone familiar with my rules compilation document can see the way I tackled this. The official rules (as already exemplified above) doesn't make any sense, so I was unable to write rules for it even when aiming to be mostly RAW.

My solution is very simple, divide armour into 3 categories:
  • Armour
  • Combined Armour
  • Field Armour
A fighter can max have 1 of each. Armour is flak, carapace, hazard suit, mesh, you know it already. Combined armour are items that improve/modify armour. So stuff like shields, undersuit, bodyglove and ablative overlay. And fields are fields, they haven't changed or been expanded since Gang War 3 I believe?
 

Al_Weeks

Gang Hero
Honored Tribesman
Dec 22, 2014
513
533
123
Bristol
Was looking for a place to discuss saves. Thanks! Anyone familiar with my rules compilation document can see the way I tackled this. The official rules (as already exemplified above) doesn't make any sense, so I was unable to write rules for it even when aiming to be mostly RAW.

My solution is very simple, divide armour into 3 categories:
  • Armour
  • Combined Armour
  • Field Armour
A fighter can max have 1 of each. Armour is flak, carapace, hazard suit, mesh, you know it already. Combined armour are items that improve/modify armour. So stuff like shields, undersuit, bodyglove and ablative overlay. And fields are fields, they haven't changed or been expanded since Gang War 3 I believe?
Makes perfect sense to me.
 
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trollmeat

Hive Guilder
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Nov 5, 2014
3,058
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...from 'May be worn in addition to armour' to 'may be combined with one piece of armour' so you can have an undersuit and armour, or an overlay and armour, but not both.

I see no reason at all why someone could not wear Armoured Undersuit, Light Carapace Armour, and Ablative Overlay.
From @Jayward’s original quoted post “Saves could really do with a 'fail on a natural 1' clause.”
I assumed this, so when I loaded the above undersuit+carapace+overlay the first roll still failed (I am great at rolling natural 1’s). Most things have some statements about failing on a natural 1, if this is not already the case for armours it needs to be added.

All of the separating Special Save & Armour Save stuff is good, just have to be careful when writing knock-on effects. (Some thinngs might ignore armour saves but not special, and special saves are generally not able to be modified.

When to roll for the armour save is important because it impacts Ablative, which is reduced/used up after each time it is rolled. If before the To-Wound roll rather than after.
- shot hits,
- special saves (dodge/fields) rolled, if failed,
- model pinned,
- roll to wound, if wounded,
- armour save.
 

trollmeat

Hive Guilder
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Nov 5, 2014
3,058
4,947
138
The rules often state ”(a natural 1 still fails)”, for specific skills/things, but there doesn’t appear to be a blanket statement covering all variants.

”Sometimes, the rules may state that a ‘natural roll of 1‘ is always a failure, in which case, regardless of any modifiers to be applied, the roll is a failure.”

Need these, or some kind of more elegantly worded solution:
Characteristic Checks:
War of the Gods Campaign variant uses the following rules:
- For Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill and Initiative, roll a D6. If the result is equal to or higher than the characteristic, the check is passed. A fighter’s WS, BS and Initiative cannot be better than 2+, modifiers that would improve this are ignored as a natural 1 is always a fail.
- For Leadership, Cool, Willpower and Intelligence, roll 2D6. If the result is equal to or higher than the characteristic, the check is passed.
For these characteristics a natural roll of 2 (double 1’s) is always a fail.
- For Strength or Toughness, roll a D6. If the result is equal to or lower than the characteristic, the check is passed.
.........gcjjtrdgjfx....

For checks that require equal to or higher than a certain number on a D6, a result of a natural 1 is always a failure no matter what modifiers would be applied. Likewise if lower than a certain number is required on a D6, a natural 6 is always a fail.
For checks that require equal to or higher than a certain number on 2D6, a result of a natural 2 (two 1’s) is always a failure no matter what modifiers would be applied. Likewise if lower than a certain number is required on 2D6, a natural 12 (two 6’s) is always a fail.


.o0(as always, ignore me, i donut nose wot i am doink)
 

Casualty

Ganger
Dec 14, 2016
77
83
23
Portland OR USA
Separating and clarifying armor saves: I favor Topsy's method and dividing them into 3 classes and also prefer the "only of each armor wargear for a fighter." Having fighters overload on armors would be no different than fighters being able to carry 5 ranged weapons at the same time. There just needs to be a limit, and one of each will likely please the greatest number of players.

"Natural 1's fail" rules: Yes, get them in there.

Thank you for this discussion.
 

JawRippa

Gang Hero
Mar 31, 2017
1,069
1,380
133
Saint-Petersburg, Russia
Never understood why invulnerable saves don’t work with armour saves . I get it from balancing perspective in , say, 40k, but it does not make sense lore wise. You could balance it out in Necromunda by making invulnerable saves have negative gimmicks, being incredibly rare and/or running out of juice forever after an unlucky roll. Anyway, good post in CC thread Jayward.
 
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Al_Weeks

Gang Hero
Honored Tribesman
Dec 22, 2014
513
533
123
Bristol
Never understood why invulnerable saves don’t work with armour saves . I get it from balancing perspective in , say, 40k, but it does not make sense lore wise. You could balance it out in Necromunda by making invulnerable saves have negative gimmicks, being incredibly rare and/or running out of juice forever after an unlucky roll. Anyway, good post in CC thread Jayward.

......... Or randomly moving you into a wall or above a chasm.....

Most of the special saves seem pretty balanced to me atm, either being 6+ or or anything better having either a big drawback or being quite rare/expensive.
 

JayTee

Ganger
Jun 14, 2015
142
267
63
Depends how many Wounds the target had before damage is applied. If 1 or 0 (and hits are resolved simultaneously) then yes, it's 4.
Yep, and then how do we resolve these 4 injury dice? There's an implication in the rules that the results of Injury Dice are applied immediately, so does this mean a single OOA action removes the fighter from the board so that can't take more OOA (and thus lasting injuries)?
Was looking for a place to discuss saves. Thanks! Anyone familiar with my rules compilation document can see the way I tackled this. The official rules (as already exemplified above) doesn't make any sense, so I was unable to write rules for it even when aiming to be mostly RAW.

My solution is very simple, divide armour into 3 categories:
  • Armour
  • Combined Armour
  • Field Armour
A fighter can max have 1 of each. Armour is flak, carapace, hazard suit, mesh, you know it already. Combined armour are items that improve/modify armour. So stuff like shields, undersuit, bodyglove and ablative overlay. And fields are fields, they haven't changed or been expanded since Gang War 3 I believe?
That's all fine, except that this means Subjugators & Van Saar get effectively no benefit from their Shields as both of those couldn't then be stacked with the bodyglove/underlay. There's a vague benefit from attacks out of their Vision Arc, but I wouldn't say the stacking of these are a problem.

I'd suggest Shields are a separate category entirely, clarifying that you can only get benefit from 1 shield at once.

Frankly the biggest problem is the Ablative Overlay, which we've houseruled to not exist...
 

Jayward

Ganger
Aug 4, 2020
167
275
63
I see no reason at all why someone could not wear Armoured Undersuit, Light Carapace Armour, and Ablative Overlay.

It's not so much the logic of the thing as the game impact: Make that Heavy Carapace and make one of your weapons a Shield (they're not armour) and you're on negative saves.

@JayTee The shields are weapons, so would still sidestep this
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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Yep, and then how do we resolve these 4 injury dice? There's an implication in the rules that the results of Injury Dice are applied immediately, so does this mean a single OOA action removes the fighter from the board so that can't take more OOA (and thus lasting injuries)?
As per my understanding of the RAW, you have to make 2 injury rolls of 2 injury dice each in sequence. If the first roll takes the fighter OoA, then the second roll is not made.
Hence, the target will take 2 Lasting injuries at most (if the roll that takes them OoA has 2 OoA results)
 

JayTee

Ganger
Jun 14, 2015
142
267
63
As per my understanding of the RAW, you have to make 2 injury rolls of 2 injury dice each in sequence. If the first roll takes the fighter OoA, then the second roll is not made.
Hence, the target will take 2 Lasting injuries at most (if the roll that takes them OoA has 2 OoA results)
That's my understanding too, and how I've clarified it for my group, just want to make sure we get a consensus on that as I know of others who disagree with that interpretation :)
 

Ledward

Ganger
Jun 6, 2017
78
78
33
Belgium
Can't we limit the amount of max lasting injury or injury dice rolls to the damage value of the weapon.
Being wounded by a melta or an autogun is quite a difference.
Also, if you get for example three out of actions/unsaved wounds from an autogun, you'll be limited to 1 lasting injury roll/injury roll. Whereas an boltgun gives a max of 2 then.
 
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