It's hard to talk about Shooting and Close Combat without it bleeding into Hit resolution, so here goes a brand new thread!
Save and save-adjacent mechanics really need to be streamlined and clarified. I love the idea of Special saves.
Also, I know it's heresy, but I'd also really like to have all the saves moved to before the Wound roll (mechanics that affect the armour save depending on the Wound roll would obviously have to be modified) or, failing that, to after the Wound roll.
It's more of a Wargear talk, but how the various 'types' of armour can be stacked also need to be reworked to make some kind of sense. It's completely ridiculous to have the Armoured bodyglove be armour while Armoured undersuit is personal equipment for instance, not to mention there is no limit to the number of shields a fighter can carry and use at the same time.
Also, I know it's heresy, but I'd also really like to have all the saves moved to before the Wound roll (mechanics that affect the armour save depending on the Wound roll would obviously have to be modified) or, failing that, to after the Wound roll.
It's more of a Wargear talk, but how the various 'types' of armour can be stacked also need to be reworked to make some kind of sense. It's completely ridiculous to have the Armoured bodyglove be armour while Armoured undersuit is personal equipment for instance, not to mention there is no limit to the number of shields a fighter can carry and use at the same time.
For armour, I think we should introduce the concept of 'layers'.
I think currently we functionally have a main layer, an underlayer, and an overlayer.
A fighter can only have one piece of wargear (just move all armour to a type of wargear) per layer.
We may even want to reduce the number of layers to prevent fighter stacking armours for insane saves.
We also need to clarify how hits are resolved.
My preference is for everything to be rolled simultaneously. So you roll all hits, then all wounds, then all saves, etc.
We also need coherent and consistent definitions of attacks, attack dice, wound rolls, and anything similar.
Say I hit someone with a bolter and two shots cause damage. Is that 1 injury roll, 2, or even 4?
I think currently we functionally have a main layer, an underlayer, and an overlayer.
A fighter can only have one piece of wargear (just move all armour to a type of wargear) per layer.
We may even want to reduce the number of layers to prevent fighter stacking armours for insane saves.
We also need to clarify how hits are resolved.
My preference is for everything to be rolled simultaneously. So you roll all hits, then all wounds, then all saves, etc.
We also need coherent and consistent definitions of attacks, attack dice, wound rolls, and anything similar.
Say I hit someone with a bolter and two shots cause damage. Is that 1 injury roll, 2, or even 4?
With Armour I'd rather go for the functionally simpler method of tweaking things like Ablative Overlay or Armoured Undersuit from 'May be worn in addition to armour' to 'may be combined with one piece of armour' so you can have an undersuit and armour, or an overlay and armour, but not both.
I agree on simultaneous hit resolution.
I think the rules are fairly clear cut on that last one being 4, aren't they? (Assuming a 1 wound fighter)
I agree on simultaneous hit resolution.
I think the rules are fairly clear cut on that last one being 4, aren't they? (Assuming a 1 wound fighter)
It's clearly 4 injury dice.
But there are effects like the Goliath tactics card to cancel a wound roll, what is it cancelling?
But there are effects like the Goliath tactics card to cancel a wound roll, what is it cancelling?
Depends how many Wounds the target had before damage is applied. If 1 or 0 (and hits are resolved simultaneously) then yes, it's 4.
Big fan of the one 'underlay/overlay' may be worn in addition to one piece of armour.
I'm quite a fan of special saves (like dodge and field saves) been taken before the wound roll (and clarifying that they cancel the hit and prevent the fighter being pinned).
It would make the minor special saves like dodge more appealing.
Keeping armour saves after wound roles is fine. Moving them to before the wound rolls will just (to the outside world) seem changing things for no apparent reason.
The special saves at least we are being clear that they are taken before wounds because a successful save cancels a hit and that we are allowing special saves to layer with armour saves.
Big fan of all hits are resolved simultaneously (purely because its simpler and allows fast rolling, roll all to wounds, roll all saves, roll all damage dice etc).
I'm quite a fan of special saves (like dodge and field saves) been taken before the wound roll (and clarifying that they cancel the hit and prevent the fighter being pinned).
It would make the minor special saves like dodge more appealing.
Keeping armour saves after wound roles is fine. Moving them to before the wound rolls will just (to the outside world) seem changing things for no apparent reason.
The special saves at least we are being clear that they are taken before wounds because a successful save cancels a hit and that we are allowing special saves to layer with armour saves.
Big fan of all hits are resolved simultaneously (purely because its simpler and allows fast rolling, roll all to wounds, roll all saves, roll all damage dice etc).
Was looking for a place to discuss saves. Thanks! Anyone familiar with my rules compilation document can see the way I tackled this. The official rules (as already exemplified above) doesn't make any sense, so I was unable to write rules for it even when aiming to be mostly RAW.
My solution is very simple, divide armour into 3 categories:
My solution is very simple, divide armour into 3 categories:
- Armour
- Combined Armour
- Field Armour
I see no reason at all why someone could not wear Armoured Undersuit, Light Carapace Armour, and Ablative Overlay.
From @Jayward’s original quoted post “Saves could really do with a 'fail on a natural 1' clause.”
I assumed this, so when I loaded the above undersuit+carapace+overlay the first roll still failed (I am great at rolling natural 1’s). Most things have some statements about failing on a natural 1, if this is not already the case for armours it needs to be added.
All of the separating Special Save & Armour Save stuff is good, just have to be careful when writing knock-on effects. (Some thinngs might ignore armour saves but not special, and special saves are generally not able to be modified.
When to roll for the armour save is important because it impacts Ablative, which is reduced/used up after each time it is rolled. If before the To-Wound roll rather than after.
- shot hits,
- special saves (dodge/fields) rolled, if failed,
- model pinned,
- roll to wound, if wounded,
- armour save.
“Saves could really do with a 'fail on a natural 1' clause.”
Yes. 100%
Yes. 100%
The rules often state ”(a natural 1 still fails)”, for specific skills/things, but there doesn’t appear to be a blanket statement covering all variants.
”Sometimes, the rules may state that a ‘natural roll of 1‘ is always a failure, in which case, regardless of any modifiers to be applied, the roll is a failure.”
Need these, or some kind of more elegantly worded solution:
Characteristic Checks:
War of the Gods Campaign variant uses the following rules:
- For Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill and Initiative, roll a D6. If the result is equal to or higher than the characteristic, the check is passed. A fighter’s WS, BS and Initiative cannot be better than 2+, modifiers that would improve this are ignored as a natural 1 is always a fail.
- For Leadership, Cool, Willpower and Intelligence, roll 2D6. If the result is equal to or higher than the characteristic, the check is passed.
For these characteristics a natural roll of 2 (double 1’s) is always a fail.
- For Strength or Toughness, roll a D6. If the result is equal to or lower than the characteristic, the check is passed.
.........gcjjtrdgjfx....
For checks that require equal to or higher than a certain number on a D6, a result of a natural 1 is always a failure no matter what modifiers would be applied. Likewise if lower than a certain number is required on a D6, a natural 6 is always a fail.
For checks that require equal to or higher than a certain number on 2D6, a result of a natural 2 (two 1’s) is always a failure no matter what modifiers would be applied. Likewise if lower than a certain number is required on 2D6, a natural 12 (two 6’s) is always a fail.
.o0(as always, ignore me, i donut nose wot i am doink)
”Sometimes, the rules may state that a ‘natural roll of 1‘ is always a failure, in which case, regardless of any modifiers to be applied, the roll is a failure.”
Need these, or some kind of more elegantly worded solution:
Characteristic Checks:
War of the Gods Campaign variant uses the following rules:
- For Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill and Initiative, roll a D6. If the result is equal to or higher than the characteristic, the check is passed. A fighter’s WS, BS and Initiative cannot be better than 2+, modifiers that would improve this are ignored as a natural 1 is always a fail.
- For Leadership, Cool, Willpower and Intelligence, roll 2D6. If the result is equal to or higher than the characteristic, the check is passed.
For these characteristics a natural roll of 2 (double 1’s) is always a fail.
- For Strength or Toughness, roll a D6. If the result is equal to or lower than the characteristic, the check is passed.
.........gcjjtrdgjfx....
For checks that require equal to or higher than a certain number on a D6, a result of a natural 1 is always a failure no matter what modifiers would be applied. Likewise if lower than a certain number is required on a D6, a natural 6 is always a fail.
For checks that require equal to or higher than a certain number on 2D6, a result of a natural 2 (two 1’s) is always a failure no matter what modifiers would be applied. Likewise if lower than a certain number is required on 2D6, a natural 12 (two 6’s) is always a fail.
.o0(as always, ignore me, i donut nose wot i am doink)
Separating and clarifying armor saves: I favor Topsy's method and dividing them into 3 classes and also prefer the "only of each armor wargear for a fighter." Having fighters overload on armors would be no different than fighters being able to carry 5 ranged weapons at the same time. There just needs to be a limit, and one of each will likely please the greatest number of players.
"Natural 1's fail" rules: Yes, get them in there.
Thank you for this discussion.
"Natural 1's fail" rules: Yes, get them in there.
Thank you for this discussion.
Never understood why invulnerable saves don’t work with armour saves . I get it from balancing perspective in , say, 40k, but it does not make sense lore wise. You could balance it out in Necromunda by making invulnerable saves have negative gimmicks, being incredibly rare and/or running out of juice forever after an unlucky roll. Anyway, good post in CC thread Jayward.
......... Or randomly moving you into a wall or above a chasm.....
Most of the special saves seem pretty balanced to me atm, either being 6+ or or anything better having either a big drawback or being quite rare/expensive.
Yep, and then how do we resolve these 4 injury dice? There's an implication in the rules that the results of Injury Dice are applied immediately, so does this mean a single OOA action removes the fighter from the board so that can't take more OOA (and thus lasting injuries)?
That's all fine, except that this means Subjugators & Van Saar get effectively no benefit from their Shields as both of those couldn't then be stacked with the bodyglove/underlay. There's a vague benefit from attacks out of their Vision Arc, but I wouldn't say the stacking of these are a problem.
I'd suggest Shields are a separate category entirely, clarifying that you can only get benefit from 1 shield at once.
Frankly the biggest problem is the Ablative Overlay, which we've houseruled to not exist...
It's not so much the logic of the thing as the game impact: Make that Heavy Carapace and make one of your weapons a Shield (they're not armour) and you're on negative saves.
@JayTee The shields are weapons, so would still sidestep this
As per my understanding of the RAW, you have to make 2 injury rolls of 2 injury dice each in sequence. If the first roll takes the fighter OoA, then the second roll is not made.
Hence, the target will take 2 Lasting injuries at most (if the roll that takes them OoA has 2 OoA results)
That's my understanding too, and how I've clarified it for my group, just want to make sure we get a consensus on that as I know of others who disagree with that interpretation
Can't we limit the amount of max lasting injury or injury dice rolls to the damage value of the weapon.
Being wounded by a melta or an autogun is quite a difference.
Also, if you get for example three out of actions/unsaved wounds from an autogun, you'll be limited to 1 lasting injury roll/injury roll. Whereas an boltgun gives a max of 2 then.
Being wounded by a melta or an autogun is quite a difference.
Also, if you get for example three out of actions/unsaved wounds from an autogun, you'll be limited to 1 lasting injury roll/injury roll. Whereas an boltgun gives a max of 2 then.
