N18 The Ash Waste Nomads' "Hide in the Wastes" rule is widely misinterpreted

[OrderForm]

Hey all, I have a bone to pick about this. Since the Nomads came out I've heard people complain that their Sky Mantles are useless because "Hide in the Wastes" is a double action. The argument goes that being able to hide is great but it takes the fighter out of the battle for the round, so it's a passive tactic - especially because moving makes you Revealed. I remember a few influential content creators saying this, and it's just stuck ever since.

But this position is based on the idea that the Nomad fighter would only remain Hidden for that round... The idea being that the Hidden condition applies to the fighter until they move or do something else to reveal themselves and that they are then visible again. This idea isn't based on anything written in the rule books. Imo it's actually based on a misinterpretation of the rules. Let me explain...

Here's the Ash Waste Nomad rule:

Hide in the Wastes (Double): If this fighter is at least 12" away from the nearest enemy model, they gain the Hidden condition (see the Necromunda:Core Rulebook) even if the current battle is not using the Pitch Black rules. They become Revealed if they move as well as all the normal triggers for becoming Revealed.

Note how "Revealed" is capitalised; it's a specific condition, rather than a lack of the Hidden condition.

Here's the relevant rules section for Hidden condition from the core rule book:

If any model subject to the Hidden condition makes a ranged attack (with the exception of weapons that have the Silent weapon trait), makes a close combat attack using a weapon with the Power trait, or is a vehicle that moves, remove the Hidden condition from them and replace it with the Revealed condition. In the End phase of each round, Revealed models become Hidden again unless they are also subject to the Blaze condition. [emphasis my own]

Revealed isn't the same as being regularly visible, it's a condition that goes hand-in-hand with the Hidden condition. Blaze etc. aside - Models that have become Revealed flip back to being Hidden in the End phase. This also applies to Nomads who have given themselves the Hidden condition via "Hide in the Wastes". So round one you could go Hidden with all your dudes, and then that condition will last for the rest of the battle.

I know that people are going to tell me that is "just" RAW, and not "Rules As Intended". What can I say... the community needs to stop using "it's a narrative game" to justify whatever vibes-based idea they have about the rules. As far as what the rules say it seems pretty clear to me. I will say this though: people agree that "Hide in the Wastes" as it's generally interpreted sucks. The RAW version that I'm proposing is better but it's not game breaking - it's still a weaker version of the Pitch Black rules. It basically just makes using Sky Mantles a viable tactic. So if you're talking about Rules As Intended, then why are you arguing for the version of the rule which makes said rule useless, and gimps an entire gang? That makes no sense.

Hopefully some other arbitrators read this and adopt the RAW version of the rule because I think it makes Nomads a lot more fun!

 

[Aulenback]

It is also missing the bit from the 2023 Core Rule Book which explains how Hidden / Revealed work:
As of 2023 they are now exclusively elements of the Visibility (X) rule.

Heading to that part of the rule book, it tells us that
1. Hidden is applied to every single fighter automatically when the Visibility (X) rule is in play. As such, if there IS Visibility (X), the Hide in the Wastes action doesn't do anything, because the fighter already HAS the Hidden condition.
2. Hidden prevents shooting at anyone beyond Visibility (X) in inches range, so when Visibility (X) is not applied, the Hidden condition does nothing, and so gaining the Hidden condition when Visibility (X) is not in force, through the Hide in the Wastes action, does absolutely nothing.

That is the trouble.

The Hidden condition rules changed from the 2022 Ash Wastes Rule Book (for which the Sky Mantle rules were written), to the 2023 Core Rule Book. In the 2022 rules, Hidden applied Visibility (3") to the Hidden fighter, and so functioned regardless what Visibility range was in effect. As of 2023, it no longer does anything when applied outside Visibility, and is already automatically applied during Visibility. So the Sky Mantle, unless house ruled, does nothing at all. Not because it is a Double Action, but because it has no effect.

But I do solidly agree that Hidden reapplies itself in every End Phase once a model has it, including through the Sky Mantle. True in the 2022 rules, true in the 2023 rules. Entirely so.
It is just that the sky mantle no longer does anything....

 

[OrderForm]

Innnnteresting. My interpretation was that the 12" part mentioned in the rules meant that the Nomads were operating as if Visibility (12") was in play. But rereading it now I can see that I was making an assumption there. That's probably still how I'd play it though.

I'm looking forward to seeing whether they've revised the wording in the new book. This would be the perfect opportunity to make the rule easier to parse.

 

[TopsyKretts]

This is a strong argument! Certainly RAW, possibly RAI. And it will fix an otherwise niche / borderline useless ability. My only hesitation is that it doesn't make much sense, from the natural intepretation of "revealed" and "hidden" (I use lower case here to indicate the concept, not the rule keyword).

The N23 rulebook updated a lot of rules and some of them broke, like Sky Mantle / Pitch Black. It isn't a stretch to say the solution is to apply the new Pitch Black or even Visibility (3") for the Sky Mantle? It looks like one of the easier problems to fix.

 

[HugeSamples]

This is a strong argument! Certainly RAW, possibly RAI. And it will fix an otherwise niche / borderline useless ability. My only hesitation is that it doesn't make much sense, from the natural intepretation of "revealed" and "hidden" (I use lower case here to indicate the concept, not the rule keyword).

The N23 rulebook updated a lot of rules and some of them broke, like Sky Mantle / Pitch Black. It isn't a stretch to say the solution is to apply the new Pitch Black or even Visibility (3") for the Sky Mantle? It looks like one of the easier problems to fix.

This is a good point about "pitch black". Personally I still play "pitch black" as visibility(3) since, in my opinion, that was the intent.

I guess in this case I would treat the sky mantle the same way? i.e. the original rules treated it the same as "pitch black".

But yeah, broken rules be broken.

Maybe they assumed people are using the model nomads have--I don't know the name--to add visibility(x) to the battlefield?

Maybe not?

Who can say with GW writing.

 

[ThatGuyKit]

From my experience, too many people want Nomads to have the same rules support in the underhive that nomads have in the wastes. It's my opinion that Ashe Wastes Nomads should not have an affinity for scuttling around in the hives. Ignoring that initial disclaimer, this thread seems to be missing the best advantage of the sky mantle and being concealed.

Insurance against sub-optimal (or poorly judged) activations.

As said by the OP, once you invest an activation to be sneaky-beakies you will regain your Hidden condition (unless you fire an unsuppressed weapon, hop on a vehicle, swing a power-weapon, get caught on fire...) during the endphase of the round. This is all of course assuming that Visibility X" is in effect. A lot of the ashe wastes scenarios by default have at least 12" visibility, if not worse (or better for sneaky sneaky nomads).

So, the gang that was made for the very specific zone expansion has wargear and abilities that directly benefit a cagy, ranged, and ambush oriented playstyle.

In the underhive (where ashe waste nomads have little to no business being anyways, but I digress...) there are still scenarios, situations, and tactics cards that can suddenly slap the battlespace with the Visibility X" rule. Enter: the sky mantle.

Tl;dr: Not all buffs are super obviously powerful and broken, especially the ones that reference a rule referenced in another rule that changed the function of the first rule a year after the second rule was written... and you should own the struggle-bus if you martyr yourself to play your nomads in a dominion campaign in the underhive.

 

[OrderForm]

From my experience, too many people want Nomads to have the same rules support in the underhive that nomads have in the wastes. It's my opinion that Ashe Wastes Nomads should not have an affinity for scuttling around in the hives. Ignoring that initial disclaimer, this thread seems to be missing the best advantage of the sky mantle and being concealed.

Insurance against sub-optimal (or poorly judged) activations.

As said by the OP, once you invest an activation to be sneaky-beakies you will regain your Hidden condition (unless you fire an unsuppressed weapon, hop on a vehicle, swing a power-weapon, get caught on fire...) during the endphase of the round. This is all of course assuming that Visibility X" is in effect. A lot of the ashe wastes scenarios by default have at least 12" visibility, if not worse (or better for sneaky sneaky nomads).

So, the gang that was made for the very specific zone expansion has wargear and abilities that directly benefit a cagy, ranged, and ambush oriented playstyle.

In the underhive (where ashe waste nomads have little to no business being anyways, but I digress...) there are still scenarios, situations, and tactics cards that can suddenly slap the battlespace with the Visibility X" rule. Enter: the sky mantle.

Tl;dr: Not all buffs are super obviously powerful and broken, especially the ones that reference a rule referenced in another rule that changed the function of the first rule a year after the second rule was written... and you should own the struggle-bus if you martyr yourself to play your nomads in a dominion campaign in the underhive.

I agree with the idea that Nomads shouldn't get the Ash Waste buffs outside of the Ash Waste. I mean it says as much in the books. Obviously it's up to arbitrators but I was a bit surprised at how widely arbitrators agreed to allow the buffs in the Hive. I think it comes down to the idea that the Nomads are a weak gang (most people don't use my interpretation of the sky mantle rules), so why not give them some extras.

In my experience the buffs are quite strong. Gameplay-wise this makes sense in the Wastes because the Nomads have a huge disadvantage by not having vehicles. It is also very fluffy for (as you mentioned) Nomads to be able to pop off shots and then disapear back into the wastes. These buffs get the Nomads *almost* on par with other gangs (until a Cargo-8 shows up). I wouldn't say that mass-Hidden is game-breaking in the Hive, but it certainly is game-altering... that is to say they change the game so much that it plays very differently. And if a player isn't prepared for the shift, it can *feel* very broken.

Obviously the game designers are steering away from the earlier invisibility rules and didn't want Nomads to be the exception.

 

[HugeSamples]

From my experience, too many people want Nomads to have the same rules support in the underhive that nomads have in the wastes. It's my opinion that Ashe Wastes Nomads should not have an affinity for scuttling around in the hives.

I don't think I agree with sediment.

If they are going to make a "gang" for Necromunda, then it should function is all facets of Necromunda and not just a specific campaign.

i.e. if Ash Wastes is a separate game (it is...), then don't brand it as Necromunda IMO.

The whole Hive Secundus thing is also falling into the bucket of a separate game as well--I'm not happy about that either. i.e. the "gangs" from that campaign--malstrain genestealers, van saar hunters--also don't function outside of that campaign. (the van saar hunter models can at least be used as proxy models for a van saar gang)

I highly suspect that the nomads are the closest thing we're going to get to the Ratskins from the original Necromunda game, which is why I imagine people are trying to adapt them for Underhive play.

 

[Aulenback]

I highly suspect that the nomads are the closest thing we're going to get to the Ratskins from the original Necromunda game, which is why I imagine people are trying to adapt them for Underhive play.

That is certainly MY reason, so that’s accurate for at least ONE of us.

 

[Xisor_of_Karak_Izor]

I'm of the opinion that Ash Wastes boons should - generally - have an effect in hive as well as out.

Not necessarily equal, but it bugs me with some of the Squat boons and skills that they're dud if you're in an indoors campaign.

Like, a big benefit outdoors, a lesser benefit indoors.

Same for some other skills/effects in reverse: Tunnelling boon? Sortof useful in the Wastes, but not so useful as indoors where the whole world is made of tunnels.

The Hiding rules are a hit bleh anyway, something a touch more generic and less of a hassle would be nice. Like adding an extra -1 in hard cover, or like you count as 6" further away when over 12" & in cover, or something.

Nobody wants to be discouraged from using the rule because it's annoying to try to use. "Negative play experience" for your opponent is one thing, but for yourself?

 

[TopsyKretts]

I remember Catachan had some ridiculous jungle special rules back in the day, like move or even see through jungle without penalty. Those kind of mechanics are so bad for the simple reason of deciding what battlefield to play next. Want to try jungle this time? Again? Nah, let's try something else Perhaps mitigated somewhat in a campaign which have a mix of battlefield types.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Something still irks me about this interpretation. You say it's misinterpreted. But I think the misinterpretation is the most intuitive. Perhaps that's why it's so commonly "misinterpreted"? What exactly is it these nomads do, let's say in round 1, that makes them go "back into the shadows" so to speak, after shooting in, let's say round 3? The normal chain of events in pitch black is you are in the dark (hidden), shoot and lights flash (revealed), then, after the round when the shooting stops for a brief moment, you become hidden again in the darkness. If they simply gained Hidden condition for the rest of the battle, why wouldn't the rules just say that explicitly? Ie. "spend a double action to make all enemies suffer Pitch Black when targeting this fighter".

 

[Aulenback]

Because that is what "Hidden" said, as a rule, in the Ash Wastes core rule book (2022). The Mantle referred you to Hidden, which applied Pitch Black rules to that fighter. In their case they become Hidden again not by darkness, but by Camouflage.

The 2023 Core Rule Book changed Hidden so that it suggests Visibility (X), and Visibility (X) does not specify the 3" range (persisting), the way the 2022 Hidden=Pitch Black 3" rule did. Both Hidden (2022) and Visibility (X) Hidden (2023) refresh at the end phase of every turn once applied, until the thing that triggered them (Visibility, or Pitch Black, or having used a Sky Mantle) stops.

In the 2023 rules, Hidden doesn't do anything if it isn't already automatically applied by Visibility (X).

 

[Xisor_of_Karak_Izor]

I happen to agree, Topsy - it's a misinterpretation, but because the Hidden/Pitch Black/Visibility X" rules, as they are, are very counterintuitive. It's a forgivable mistake, even a bit "Luke, I am your father". (I.e. it provides more context than the original quotation on its own, but is more succinct or pithy than quoting the scene more accurately would be.)

Another one to add to the scant handful of Necromunda rules that could benefit from a lil' tweak.

 

[SirWalterManny]

Just on issue of rules applying in Underhive battles…

“1. Ghost of the Wastes
While this fighter is equipped with a sky mantle, they treat the Hide in the Wastes (Double) action as a Basic action. In addition, if fighting in an Underhive battle, this fighter may perform the Hide the Wastes (Basic) action as if it was an Ash Wastes battle.”
TRIBES OF THE WASTELANDS, p76, WASTELANDS SKILLS

This suggests that except where the fighter has this skill, Sky Mantle’s ‘Hide in the Wastes’ action cannot be used except in an Ash Wastes battle (Although the actual Sky Mantle rule has no RAW limit to Ash Wastes battles).

When the rule was first written, it effectively gave the fighter protection as if Visability (3”) rules were in place - when for all other fighters ash wastes battles had Visibility (6-24”) rules in play.

Now, as all Ash Wastes battles apply hidden, and hidden just applies the same visibility rule to all fighters, the Sky Mantle does nothing in Ash Wastes battles. And in Underhive battles, it can offer a benefit wher the Pitch Black rules aren’t in play, but only to a fighter who also has the ‘Ghost of the Wastes‘ skill.

Hidden rules definitely need a rewrite to clarify them, and this rule then needs updating to align with that.

Narratively, I would have thought that as the Sky Mantle looks to just be something to break up the fighters profile on the horizon, it should probably either allow a fighter to retain the Hidden status if they made a ranged attack (perhaps limited to fighters more than 12” away), or provided a bonus to hit modifier if targeted by a ranged attack.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Because that is what "Hidden" said, as a rule, in the Ash Wastes core rule book (2022). The Mantle referred you to Hidden, which applied Pitch Black rules to that fighter. In their case they become Hidden again not by Shadows, but by Camouflage.

The 2023 Core Rule Book changed Hidden so that it suggests Visibility (X), and Visibility (X) does not specify the 3" range (persisting), the way the 2022 Hidden=Pitch Black 3" rule did. Both Hidden (2022) and Visibility (X) Hidden (2023) refresh at the end phase of every turn once applied, until the thing that triggered them (Visibility, or Pitch Black, or having used a Sky Mantle) stops.

Making Sky Mantle a (Basic) action suggests that NOW it is maybe no longer intended to refresh (so move and Hide), but it doesn't change that in the 2023 rules, Hidden doesn't do anything if it isn't already automatically applied by Visibility (X).

But if they are camouflaged, why not have the special rule always on? You have to spend a double action (ie. activation/round) to enable it. Normally, those who are camouflaged are always camouflaged. If they remain camouflaged, it comes at a very peculiar "tax".

 

[TopsyKretts]

Another one to add to the scant handful of Necromunda rules that could benefit from a lil' tweak.

Well GW had the perfect opportunity now with the fresh Nomads book, all they did was update reference to the latest rulebook (the one they want you to buy haha).

 

[OrderForm]

Something still irks me about this interpretation. You say it's misinterpreted. But I think the misinterpretation is the most intuitive. Perhaps that's why it's so commonly "misinterpreted"? What exactly is it these nomads do, let's say in round 1, that makes them go "back into the shadows" so to speak, after shooting in, let's say round 3? The normal chain of events in pitch black is you are in the dark (hidden), shoot and lights flash (revealed), then, after the round when the shooting stops for a brief moment, you become hidden again in the darkness. If they simply gained Hidden condition for the rest of the battle, why wouldn't the rules just say that explicitly? Ie. "spend a double action to make all enemies suffer Pitch Black when targeting this fighter".

I agree that the reason it's misinterpreted is because it's counterintuitive.

As to what is narratively happening: I imagine they move/shoot and disrupt their camo momentarily, only to blend back into the landscape after that.

As for the mechanics of it being a double action... I'm not really sure. Maybe the designers thought it needed some sort of downside in the game mechanics.

It's an interesting point you raise though, because it reminds me of chats I have at my club. Players will often say a rule "doesn't make sense" because it abstracts away from what would be happening narratively. E.g. in pitch black rules throwing a grenade makes you visible even though there's a good argument to be made that this would be a silent act. But sometimes you just need a bit of a gamey abstraction to make play easier. Where the line between abstraction and simulation is drawn can be a bit arbitrary (and open to arbitrator interpretation!)

 

[OrderForm]

So apparently this has not been fixed in the new book. Quoting @SirWalterManny:
---
Sky Mantle double action:

Book of the Outlands (2022)
“Hide in the Wastes (Double): If this fighter is at least 12" away from the nearest enemy model, they gain the Hidden condition (see the Necromunda: Rulebook) even if the current battle is not using the Pitch Black rules. They become Revealed if they move as well as all the normal triggers for becoming Revealed.”

Tribes of the Wastelands (2025)
“Hide in the Wastes (Double): If this fighter is at least 12" away from the nearest enemy model, they gain the Hidden condition (see the Necromunda Core Rulebook) even if the current battle is not using the Pitch Black rules. They become Revealed if they move as well as all the normal triggers for becoming Revealed.”

So the rules have been updated… to reference the name of the current rulebook. But the rules referenced (in the core rulebook) have changed from what was in the 2018 rulebook (which effectively was Visibility (3”), or Visibility (12”) for fighters with e.g photo goggles).

But, with the Pitch Black/Visibility X rules from the Core Rulebook, this only now offers any benefit where there are no visibility/pitch black rules already in play? I don’t think the 12” mention actually has any effect, RAW, as hidden is just a condition with the effects determined by the Battlefield Conditions?
---

Wow, what a fumble on their behalf. This was the perfect opportunity for some clarity.

 

[HugeSamples]

Wow, what a fumble on their behalf. This was the perfect opportunity for some clarity.

GW is, as GW does...